Palytoxin chemistry

[Thales]

Oh wow cool. Hi!

Well, I'm no expert but bacterial infections can cause "flu-like" symptoms. Cyanobacteria often release toxins, and some dinoflagellates as well like ostreopsis and karenia brevis.

Also just regular human illness like the flu, coronavirus, or the common cold. There was a post on this forum from a guy who was convinced he had palytoxin poisoning, until he saw a doctor and tested positive for covid-19.

Hi!

joes evidence not outs. No cyano or Dino’s of note in joes tank. No sickness in Joe. Months, iirc more that 6 months, of reliably getting ill after diving (of course business as usual changed). Tons of paly on the tank over time. Joe is highly experienced and there are tons of vet and aquarium staff that he consulted with. What compelling evidence are you seeing that the effects he was seeing was something other than paly effects? Thanks!

Edit: I may have confused your name and I apologize. Hosts on Reef beef are Rich and Ben, right? If you don't mind me asking, which are you?

No worries. I’m Rich. Great to meet you!

 

[fryman]

Hi!

joes evidence not outs. No cyano or Dino’s of note in joes tank. No sickness in Joe. Months, iirc more that 6 months, of reliably getting ill after diving (of course business as usual changed). Tons of paly on the tank over time. Joe is highly experienced and there are tons of vet and aquarium staff that he consulted with. What compelling evidence are you seeing that the effects he was seeing was something other than paly effects? Thanks!


No worries. I’m Rich. Great to meet you!

Hi Rich, I'm Sean. Very nice to meet you! I do like your show.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it was definately not palytoxin. I'm skeptical because I think in the hobby people often jump to that conclusion. The symptoms of palytoxin exposure are varied and non-specific. So for any reports of illness or injury, if palythoa/zoanthods are present we often "blame" them. It is a plausible explanation in this case, especially if Joe eliminated other potential causes. But it's difficult to eliminate all possibilities via testing since there are many toxic organisms. I think we will never know for sure.

Joe is in a unique situation since he is actually diving in the tank. I don't dive anymore and never have done so in an aquarium. It's difficult to avoid getting any saltwater in your eyes, nose & mouth when diving.

I believe it is important for people to be aware of palytoxin and the risks, so they can mitigate them. If you handle palys (especially if you frag them), wear a face shield and gloves. Also do not boil or dissolve them because aerosolized palytoxin is possible and very dangerous. But it is not absorbed through skin and so seems pretty easy to reduce the risk to an acceptable level. Palys are not likely to dart from the rockwork and stab you with a venomous spine, for example.

Risk in this hobby is not limited to palythoa. I think there are bigger ones that people don't seem to worry about, such as pathogenic microorganisms. The biggest risk we face in the hobby (other than perhaps driving to our local LFS) is probably electric shock. But people seem to shrug those off and focus on fringe elements of risk management in the hobby.

If we undersand the risks we can mitigate them. I don't see why people think this particular one is so great or difficult to manage. It doesn't seem that way to me.

 

[thejacgues]

Hey @Randy Holmes-Farley do you think ozone (in doses used in reef tanks for overall toxins breakdown, water clarity etc.) would be capable of

 

[Hans-Werner]

There are several scientific articles that state that toxin production of dinoflagellates increases under phosphate limitation and/or unbalanced high available nitrogen concentrations.

Maybe the same holds true for Palythoas and may help explain varying toxicity?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey @Randy Holmes-Farley do you think ozone (in doses used in reef tanks for overall toxins breakdown, water clarity etc.) would be capable of

The carbon-carbon double bonds, and possibly other aspects of it will be susceptible to damage by ozone and I expect ozone will reduce the dissolved concentration of palytoxin. How much it is reduced, I do not know.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Since toxins of certain families occur in very different organism groups like dinoflagellates and zoanthids: To my knowledge this is subject of ongoing research and it is believed that the toxins are originally synthesized by symbiotic bacteria. This is particularly the case with Tetrodotoxin but I think also with Palytoxin and other widespread toxin families. Article, Article palytoxin in cyanobacteria.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

What gives me peace of mind is hearing actual accounts of toxic exposure like Joe's in this video, and Julian's when he did his presentation. I've handled a lot of Zoas, and I've never had anything close to a real reaction, but all the forums are flooded with them. I can't tell you how many threads I've read or videos I've seen of people recounting their "deadly palytoxin encounter" . It's always a story about how they got a headache the day after working in their tank, or being squirted in the eye fragging, which left them with a red eye for a few hours. Not to mention the fact that no one ever claims to have been poisoned by dinos, which almost everyone has in their tank to some extent. It seems like it's extremely hard/unlikely to gain exposure unless you're doing so under extreme circumstances

We know that different species concentrate different levels of the toxin. I suspect that enviromental conditions can also be responsible for the varying levels of toxicity. Here is an excerpt of a conversation I had with cristata.reef on the topic.

 

[Tuna Melt]

I have removed all zoas and palys from my tanks. Unfortunately the palytoxin sent me to the emergency room twice and had to be warded in the icu both times. My doctor told me to get rid of those corals.

Which type of paly/zoa

More people need to report which type of zoa/paly they were working with and what happened. Everyone wants to know which ones are toxic/not, but people never follow up. We could get some kind of R2R toxicity spreadsheet going (completely anecdotal ofc, but better than nothing).

Couldn't agree more, then we could pick and choose safer options.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

Which type of paly/zoa

These are the type that sent me to urgent care twice. They are Palythoa toxica. I am very cautious around this Palythoa phenotype

 

[rennjidk]

We know that different species concentrate different levels of the toxin. I suspect that enviromental conditions can also be responsible for the varying levels of toxicity.

They most likely do. My point was that people blindly assign blame to palytoxin, just due to the fact that they have then in their tanks. Its become a catch all for everything from livestock deaths to physical ailments. There's a thread somewhere from a while back of a guy who cut his hand on some rock while doing maintenance. He ended up needing multiple surgeries to remove the bacterial infection that spread to the bone over the corse of a week. He still claimed it was PLTX poisoning despite being told by the community and multiple medical doctors, just because palys were in the tank.

I don't personally keep them, but if they're in the water and you treat them with respect, the chances that you'll ever suffer PLTX poisoning from normal tank activities is extremely rare, imo.

 

[rennjidk]

These are the type that sent me to urgent care twice. They are Palythoa toxica. I am very cautious around this Palythoa phenotype

Just out of curiosity, what did they actually do when you got there?

 

[IntrinsicReef]

They most likely do. My point was that people blindly assign blame to palytoxin, just due to the fact that they have then in their tanks. Its become a catch all for everything from livestock deaths to physical ailments. There's a thread somewhere from a while back of a guy who cut his hand on some rock while doing maintenance. He ended up needing multiple surgeries to remove the bacterial infection that spread to the bone over the corse of a week. He still claimed it was PLTX poisoning despite being told by the community and multiple medical doctors, just because palys were in the tank.

I don't personally keep them, but if they're in the water and you treat them with respect, the chances that you'll ever suffer PLTX poisoning from normal tank activities is extremely rare, imo.

Just out of curiosity, what did they actually do when you got there?

So, having cuts on your hand while working with them is a good way for the toxin to enter your body. That is what happened to me. Both times, the initial symptoms were shallow breathing, fever, rapid heartbeat. It feels like you are about to come down with the flu as well. The symptoms set in a few hours after contact, and luckily were mostly gone in 24 hrs. I woke up with a highly swollen hand ( could barely move it swollen). This happened fast. Within 12 hours or so. This happened twice in a month, both times hours after handling the Palys. The swollen hand is treated as an infection and I think this is where the confusion sets in. I asked 2 doctors why both times I got an infection where a neurotoxin entered my hand. I was confused as well. It was explained to me that the toxin causes tissue damage and gives opprotunistic bacteria a chance to cause an infection. I was given cipro both times for the infection but there was nothing to do about the other symptoms.
I service reef aquariums everyday and have done so owning a service business for 15 years. I work around Palys almost daily. I initially thought it was an zoonotic infection or I had developed a sensitivity as well. After figuring out which Palys had made me ill, I was able to me more cautious and I haven't had a reaction in 6 years ( knock on wood.)

 

[IntrinsicReef]

but if they're in the water and you treat them with respect, the chances that you'll ever suffer PLTX poisoning from normal tank activities is extremely rare, imo.

To your point, I currently service tanks with Palys I know to be toxic. Clients buy them. I just don't touch them. They are aggressive growers though, and people will always end up trying to cut them back or frag them or generally tick them off. Cleaning hair algae out of them or whatever. I try to spread awareness to spare people my experience and other's far worse experiences.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I have found one article investigating the Palytoxin production under nutrient limitations. It is on Ostreopsis. Toxin production is not as expected being lower under both, N and P limitation. Again nitrogen limitation is more effective (lower toxin concentrations) than phosphorus limitation.

Again I can`t link the PDF directly since I get an error notification from the copied link. I hope it works for you this way.

 

[rennjidk]

I have found one article investigating the Palytoxin production under nutrient limitations. It is on Ostreopsis. Toxin production is not as expected being lower under both, N and P limitation. Again nitrogen limitation is more effective (lower toxin concentrations) than phosphorus limitation.

Again I can`t link the PDF directly since I get an error notification from the copied link. I hope it works for you this way.

If I'm reading that correctly, it could explain why we don't see more PLTX exposures after large dino outbreaks, which seem to follow a bottoming out of No3 and Po4.

 

[taricha]

(I'm only a hobby chemist) I have palys, but I wish I didn't and am slowly eliminating them. I don't think they are toxic, but only because I've cut a number of them and have never had a reaction.

Was thinking about this the other day.
I used to get an odd taste in my mouth occasionally when I'd do tank maintenance - pruning, moving rocks and stuff around in the tank. Maybe metallic-ish salty. I always assumed I just somehow got saltwater plus some other weird chemical in my mouth, but had no idea how it kept happening.
The above quote was a year ago and the palys have been gone from my tank since (covered gradually with Kalk+NaOH slurry). And in the past year I've never had that weird taste in my mouth again. I now think it's more likely (not certain, of course) that I was experiencing the mildest noticeable palytoxin effects, rather than somehow I kept getting weird tasting tankwater in my mouth, and now I don't for some reason.
(my palys were unattractive with no particular color or pattern to them, brownish purple.)

On the other side of the coin, here's a new Reef Beef with the most extreme palytoxin effects you can have and still live to talk about it...

 

[taricha]

I have found one article investigating the Palytoxin production under nutrient limitations. It is on Ostreopsis. Toxin production is not as expected being lower under both, N and P limitation. Again nitrogen limitation is more effective (lower toxin concentrations) than phosphorus limitation.

One thing that makes these studies a bit tricky to interpret is that "limitation" can be investigated differently by the studies.

If you limit nutrients to some degree, toxicity in dinos increases. But if you limit nutrients even more strictly, then the dinos don't have the building blocks to make the toxins. So the details of the "limitation" can matter a lot as to which effect you see.
I think in hobby reef tanks, the "limitation" we are likelier to see is the soft kind of limitation that increases toxicity, rather than the hard limitation that makes generating toxins impossible.
(that's my overall picture - been a while since I read those papers.)