Palytoxin

[jeeper07]

Hello all, first post here and unfortunately it has to do with palytoxin. I’ll try to keep it short but I feel like I need to explain in detail to give a full scope of what I’m experiencing. Around may-June last year I broke down a tank that had a lot of live rock, some soft coral, some zoas, palythoas and some anemones. I placed everything in a large horse trough in the basement until I could get the tank up and running again. Well fast Foward to about 2 weeks ago, and I finally stated aquascaping, life got in the way and delayed the tank by several months. During that time most of the coral/poly’s and zoas died off. About 2 weeks ago I took out the majority of the rock to rinse some of the cyno off and let sit out on a tarp in the basement to dry off enough to let the reef mortar set up. Later that night I came down with a bad cold, or so I thought. Came out of nowhere, coughing,sneezing and tons of mucus. Within a couple days I felt better but still had symptoms. The tank took about a week to fill, I just let the ro fill directly into the tank and added salt directly to the tank daily. last Thursday the tank was finally full enough to kick in the return pumps, within 5 minutes of the return pumps running BOOM the “cold” comes back again. 2nd time in two weeks that I got sick like this. The tank did have a ton of aeration from the splashing in the sump as I had the pumps running at full tilt. I was completely miserable that day. Then I came home to our little yorkie breathing heavily that night. Cleaned her up and let her sleep up stairs and she was fine the next day.That should have been a sign that something was up. My family and I left town the next day for 1 night and came back home to all 3 of our dogs soughing/hacking. Did I have a run in with palytoxin? If so what do I do to get rid of it? Tonight I made the decision to drain out half of the tank and replace it with just regular tap water and do another 50% water change tomorrow with tap water too. I also added a bunch of carbon. I plan on doing 50% water changes for the next few days unless advised differently. I’m still coughing and that was 4 days ago and anytime I’m down stairs for a bit it gets worse. Please help.

 

[jeeper07]

Anyone?

 

[The_Paradox]

Anyone?

Sure. I’ll play. You broke down your tank and everything was stored dry? If so that rules out palytoxin as it would have gone through enough half-lives. Bacteria on the other hand…

 

[mdpitts]

I saw a thread by a person who was cleaning rock that had been out on his patio for a long time and him and his whole family got sick. It was pretty dicey. That scared the crap out of me because it was the first I'd heard of "beginner corals" trying to kill people who don't know that some carry palytoxin. I'll see if I can find the thread and link it. So, maybe palytoxin doesn't really have a shelf-life?

 

[Glenner’sreef]

Wow! Sorry you had to go through all of that!!! For safety sake can you just get rid of all the rock? That would solve the problem.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Tonight I made the decision to drain out half of the tank and replace it with just regular tap water and do another 50% water change tomorrow with tap water too. I also added a bunch of carbon. I plan on doing 50% water changes for the next few days unless advised differently. I’m still coughing and that was 4 days ago and anytime I’m down stairs for a bit it gets worse. Please help.

Carbon and water changes should remove any palytoxin in the water - if you think palytoxin is the issue, you can either drain the tank, move it out of the house and see if that helps; or you can try covering the tank so that nothing (like microscopic water droplets, for example) can get out from it into the air around it, then air out your house and see if that helps.

Other things that could potentially cause issues like this are things like bacteria, toxic dinoflagellates, mold, etc. - I'd check for mold near where you set the tank up, and try checking if removing/isolating the tank helps.

I saw a thread by a person who was cleaning rock that had been out on his patio for a long time and him and his whole family got sick. It was pretty dicey. That scared the crap out of me because it was the first I'd heard of "beginner corals" trying to kill people who don't know that some carry palytoxin. I'll see if I can find the thread and link it. So, maybe palytoxin doesn't really have a shelf-life?

I think you're thinking about this one:

Another story of palytoxin poisoning, recent experience

I contemplated even posting this because hindsight it could had been avoided, be gentle because I am still very sick. Yesterday after mowing the lawn I was looking at my back porch thinking yeah those paly plugs have been out here a month now in the hot southern sun, they are done for and i need...

www.reef2reef.com

Edit: Just adding a link with symptoms, and suggesting that anyone who thinks they may have been exposed to palytoxin call poison control:

Palytoxin Poisoning: Marine Aquarium Safety | SA Health

Palytoxin poisoning: Zoanthid coral species can contain Palytoxin and cause dangerous symptoms if not handled carefully. Protect your family with these aquarium tips.

www.sahealth.sa.gov.au

 

[The_Paradox]

I saw a thread by a person who was cleaning rock that had been out on his patio for a long time and him and his whole family got sick. It was pretty dicey. That scared the crap out of me because it was the first I'd heard of "beginner corals" trying to kill people who don't know that some carry palytoxin. I'll see if I can find the thread and link it. So, maybe palytoxin doesn't really have a shelf-life?

I heard a story too about Godzilla climbing out of reef tanks and eating children… I think I’m actually the one who posted it.

 

[reefbliss2344]

Go get blood work done. You made need a steroid or an anti histamine to push you through.

 

[Dom]

I saw a thread by a person who was cleaning rock that had been out on his patio for a long time and him and his whole family got sick. It was pretty dicey. That scared the crap out of me because it was the first I'd heard of "beginner corals" trying to kill people who don't know that some carry palytoxin. I'll see if I can find the thread and link it. So, maybe palytoxin doesn't really have a shelf-life?

I believe that guy boiled his live rock and the toxin was distributed about the house in the steam.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I believe that guy boiled his live rock and the toxin was distributed about the house in the steam.

Different one, but yeah, people have done that too.

For info on palytoxin and for examples of what not to do, see the links in the quote below:

Palys, zoas, and other things (surprisingly, it can be a bit complicated what does and doesn't fit this category) may all contain palytoxin, but as long as your not ingesting it/something that contains it, getting it in cuts (or your eyes), or (most commonly) aerosolizing it, it shouldn't hurt you at all.

If you want some in depth reading (that I think covers most of the topic) on palytoxin, see my posts in the threads below (some of threads have multiple posts from me):

Can the toxins from zoas actually kill you?

My family is worried about me getting zoas because there toxic, can the toxins actually kill you?

www.reef2reef.com

Newbie Palytoxin Concerns

So a little background info to start…we set up a 55 gallon tank with the intent of having a fish only tank. At the end of November we purchased 2 small ($10.00) coral frags. Unfortunately we did not do research and blindly purchased what turned out to be a Zoa and a Paly I believe. Fast...

www.reef2reef.com

EMERGENCY - Anyone ever haddermal palytoxin poisoning on here.

To some ot up had a patch of gha on a huge zoa rock in tank was using forceps to pull it off while in the tank. Think i may have disturbed them a bit but not much and yes these are the big uglys ones that everyone says have it. Well wasnt wearing gloves and did it at probably 1 am monday...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[jeeper07]

Sure. I’ll play. You broke down your tank and everything was stored dry? If so that rules out palytoxin as it would have gone through enough half-lives. Bacteria on the other hand…

Everything was stored in a horse trough with lights and wave makers. The day I aquascaped the tank I removed the rock so it could dry a bit so the mortar would adhere better. That day I got sick, then again when the tank was full and I started the return pumps

 

[The_Paradox]

Use your own judgement. If you’re that sensitive though I would ditch the hobby. So many things have palytoxin in them to include algae and dinoflagellates.

 

[jeeper07]

Wow! Sorry you had to go through all of that!!! For safety sake can you just get rid of all the rock? That would solve the problem.

I can’t really, it’s 600lbs that have been glued together with mortar.

 

[jeeper07]

Use your own judgement. If you’re that sensitive though I would ditch the hobby. So many things have palytoxin in them to include algae and dinoflagellates.

Trust me I’ve thought about it. But it was a huge undertaking getting this 800 gallon tank in the house, plus all the time aquascaping.

 

[Jim Gomoll]

Go get blood work done. You made need a steroid or an anti histamine to push you through.

Tell you doctor you have a coral reef tank so it is in you file.
Couple years back I had a nasty skin infection on side of my nose. Doc took 3 different culture tests and couldn't figure it out. After thought and seen in other posts - tell you doc especially if you keep zoas, palys, and stinging fish. I deduced that a few days prior to my infection that I was fragging some palys so it made sense. Now I wear gloves, glasses and am mindful of what's on my hands even with gloves when I get an itch while messing with my tank.

 

[mdpitts]

Carbon and water changes should remove any palytoxin in the water - if you think palytoxin is the issue, you can either drain the tank, move it out of the house and see if that helps; or you can try covering the tank so that nothing (like microscopic water droplets, for example) can get out from it into the air around it, then air out your house and see if that helps.

Other things that could potentially cause issues like this are things like bacteria, toxic dinoflagellates, mold, etc. - I'd check for mold near where you set the tank up, and try checking if removing/isolating the tank helps.

I think you're thinking about this one:

Another story of palytoxin poisoning, recent experience

I contemplated even posting this because hindsight it could had been avoided, be gentle because I am still very sick. Yesterday after mowing the lawn I was looking at my back porch thinking yeah those paly plugs have been out here a month now in the hot southern sun, they are done for and i need...

www.reef2reef.com

Edit: Just adding a link with symptoms, and suggesting that anyone who thinks they may have been exposed to palytoxin call poison control:

Palytoxin Poisoning: Marine Aquarium Safety | SA Health

Palytoxin poisoning: Zoanthid coral species can contain Palytoxin and cause dangerous symptoms if not handled carefully. Protect your family with these aquarium tips.

www.sahealth.sa.gov.au

Yes!! Ding ding ding! You found it. I looked earlier before work and couldn't find it. That post scared the crap out of me.

 

[mdpitts]

I heard a story too about Godzilla climbing out of reef tanks and eating children… I think I’m actually the one who posted it.

Haha. That's funny! Awwww, c'mon! If I'm not afraid of things that could get me and I die alone in my house then I'm positive my cat and dogs will eat me. Caution is the name of my game. In reality though, I'm not cautious and I mess around in my tank too much and don't worry about it.

 

[jeeper07]

Carbon and water changes should remove any palytoxin in the water - if you think palytoxin is the issue, you can either drain the tank, move it out of the house and see if that helps; or you can try covering the tank so that nothing (like microscopic water droplets, for example) can get out from it into the air around it, then air out your house and see if that helps.

Other things that could potentially cause issues like this are things like bacteria, toxic dinoflagellates, mold, etc. - I'd check for mold near where you set the tank up, and try checking if removing/isolating the tank helps.

I think you're thinking about this one:

Another story of palytoxin poisoning, recent experience

I contemplated even posting this because hindsight it could had been avoided, be gentle because I am still very sick. Yesterday after mowing the lawn I was looking at my back porch thinking yeah those paly plugs have been out here a month now in the hot southern sun, they are done for and i need...

www.reef2reef.com

Edit: Just adding a link with symptoms, and suggesting that anyone who thinks they may have been exposed to palytoxin call poison control:

Palytoxin Poisoning: Marine Aquarium Safety | SA Health

Palytoxin poisoning: Zoanthid coral species can contain Palytoxin and cause dangerous symptoms if not handled carefully. Protect your family with these aquarium tips.

www.sahealth.sa.gov.au

Thanks for the reply. Don’t think it’s mold as I just set the tank up. It has only been running a a week. If it was bacteria or from Dino’s will water changes still fix this? Assuming if it was bacterial it came from the live rock?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Thanks for the reply. Don’t think it’s mold as I just set the tank up. It has only been running a a week. If it was bacteria or from Dino’s will water changes still fix this? Assuming if it was bacterial it came from the live rock?

Water changes and carbon would presumably still help, yes, but the root of the issue (the dinos or bacteria) may need to be dealt with if that's the cause.

The live rock, any corals or other animals added (anything wet) could potentially bring harmful bacteria with it (there's a ton of different kinds of bacteria in seawater, and several of those kinds may be harmful if present in big enough quantities).

 

[jeeper07]

Water changes and carbon would presumably still help, yes, but the root of the issue (the dinos or bacteria) may need to be dealt with if that's the cause.

The live rock, any corals or other animals added (anything wet) could potentially bring harmful bacteria with it (there's a ton of different kinds of bacteria in seawater, and several of those kinds may be harmful if present in big enough quantities).

Ok, so how does one determine the cause? I didn’t see any Dino’s but the rock did have a fair amount of algae on it. It went through a couple bad cyno outbreaks due to the move and some of that never really went away. If it is bacterial how do you treat that?