Palytoxin

[The_Paradox]

Ok, so how does one determine the cause?

That’s the neat part. You don’t without it happening again.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Ok, so how does one determine the cause? I didn’t see any Dino’s but the rock did have a fair amount of algae on it. It went through a couple bad cyno outbreaks due to the move and some of that never really went away. If it is bacterial how do you treat that?

This is the hard part, unfortunately. Determining the cause involves confirming the existence of the potential causes (not always an easy thing for hobbyists when dealing with bacteria), then eliminating potential causes until only one remains plausible.

For treating it, your options would basically be sterilizing the tank, or shifting the microbiome to favor other bacteria and allow those to outcompete any bad ones in your tank. Honestly speaking, sterilization would likely be the easier route.

 

[jeeper07]

This is the hard part, unfortunately. Determining the cause involves confirming the existence of the potential causes (not always an easy thing for hobbyists when dealing with bacteria), then eliminating potential causes until only one remains plausible.

For treating it, your options would basically be sterilizing the tank, or shifting the microbiome to favor other bacteria and allow those to outcompete any bad ones in your tank. Honestly speaking, sterilization would likely be the easier route.

Ok how do I go about safely sterilizing the tank?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Ok how do I go about safely sterilizing the tank?

My first thought would be bleach, but - with the other thread you have about that - I don't know enough about chemistry to say if that would be a good idea for you or not. I know hydrogen peroxide in highly concentrated amounts can be used as well, but - again - I don't know if that would be a good idea or not.

Personally, I'd say to ask @Randy Holmes-Farley if he has any thoughts on how to safely and effectively sterilize your tank.

 

[twentyleagues]

People have had adverse reactions to cyano also. I dont know if cyano contains palytoxin or not.

 

[jeeper07]

Yeah I’m wondering if that’s what happened? I’ll post pics of some leftover rock that I didn’t use

 

[jeeper07]

Here is a couple examples of what was on the majority of the rocks that went into the tank. I would say probably 400lbs or so. Kind of a dark purple slime.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Not palytoxin by what you describe.

 

[twentyleagues]

You could use an antibiotic treatment if its cyano, chemiclean or redslime remover are antibiotics. I have no idea if they actually neutralize the toxins too. Run a lot of carbon after.

 

[littlefoxx]

Looks like just rock and stuff, the corals died off you said? Not sure how it could be that palytoxin without those corals in there?. I would probably go to the doctor and take your dogs to the vet to see whats up. @vetteguy53081 has medical experience maybe he can help?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello all, first post here and unfortunately it has to do with palytoxin. I’ll try to keep it short but I feel like I need to explain in detail to give a full scope of what I’m experiencing. Around may-June last year I broke down a tank that had a lot of live rock, some soft coral, some zoas, palythoas and some anemones. I placed everything in a large horse trough in the basement until I could get the tank up and running again. Well fast Foward to about 2 weeks ago, and I finally stated aquascaping, life got in the way and delayed the tank by several months. During that time most of the coral/poly’s and zoas died off. About 2 weeks ago I took out the majority of the rock to rinse some of the cyno off and let sit out on a tarp in the basement to dry off enough to let the reef mortar set up. Later that night I came down with a bad cold, or so I thought. Came out of nowhere, coughing,sneezing and tons of mucus. Within a couple days I felt better but still had symptoms. The tank took about a week to fill, I just let the ro fill directly into the tank and added salt directly to the tank daily. last Thursday the tank was finally full enough to kick in the return pumps, within 5 minutes of the return pumps running BOOM the “cold” comes back again. 2nd time in two weeks that I got sick like this. The tank did have a ton of aeration from the splashing in the sump as I had the pumps running at full tilt. I was completely miserable that day. Then I came home to our little yorkie breathing heavily that night. Cleaned her up and let her sleep up stairs and she was fine the next day.That should have been a sign that something was up. My family and I left town the next day for 1 night and came back home to all 3 of our dogs soughing/hacking. Did I have a run in with palytoxin? If so what do I do to get rid of it? Tonight I made the decision to drain out half of the tank and replace it with just regular tap water and do another 50% water change tomorrow with tap water too. I also added a bunch of carbon. I plan on doing 50% water changes for the next few days unless advised differently. I’m still coughing and that was 4 days ago and anytime I’m down stairs for a bit it gets worse. Please help.

Im not convinced on Palytoxin and may be an allergic reaction but you would have seen increased symptoms at this point. being in health Care in the past, I wrote this a while back for insight:
Health care person here:

You may have had a reaction with saltwater as I would many years ago as soon as my hand went into saltwater. But what my concern is - your symptoms you mentioned. Some symptoms of Pox and zoa poisoning are:

• Flu-like symptoms – Chills, Fever, Headaches, Cough, Sore Throat, Chest Pains, Muscle Aches
• Rash, Itching, Numbness in Affected Area
• Trouble Breathing, Shortness of Breath, Runny Nose, Wheezing
• Dizziness, Blurred Vision, Fatigue, Irregular Heart Beat
• Possible Foul Smell or Bitter/Metallic Taste in Mouth

Me personally, I would consult with poison center 1-800-222-1222. It is free and confidential and they can assess your symptoms and make proper recommendations. Benadryl should help BUT speak with them first Before taking any medication.

Here is helpful reading:

Symptoms Of Palytoxin Poisoning​

Although poisonings are relatively rare it is important to be aware that Palytoxin poses a significant risk to human safety due to its extreme toxicity. Symptoms can occur and progress rapidly within minutes to hours after handling coral.
Severity depends on how long people have been exposed, the distance they were from the location where coral was being handled, the route of exposure and the presence of cuts or abrasions on hands (Palytoxin can easily pass through a skin wound and reach the bloodstream).
Symptoms include:

• Flu-like symptoms such as coughing, fever, chills, sore throat, headache, muscle aches, chest pain, respiratory distress.
• Skin symptoms: rash (hives), itching, numbness, dermatitis.
• Respiratory symptoms: wheezing, tight chest, shortness of breath, runny nose, fluid in the lungs.
• Gastrointestinal symptoms: abdominal cramps, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea.
• Ocular symptoms, conjunctivitis, photophobia, blurred vision, corneal ulceration.(eyes in general)
• Neurological symptoms: fatigue, dizziness, speech disturbance, bitter metallic taste, tremors, tingling or numbness of extremities.
• Muscle symptoms: pain, weakness, cramps, spasms.
• Cardiac effects: irregular, slow, fast heart rate, cardiac muscle damage, low or high blood pressure

Severe cases report muscle breakdown, kidney failure, coma and death from cardiac or respiratory failure. There is no specific treatment or antidote for Palytoxin poisoning with medical treatment limited generally to supportive care.
and contacting Poison control was the first good initiative you made.

• Most aquarium-related cases occur as a result of skin exposure after prolonged handling through cuts on hands or inhalation of coral dust, steam vapors or water droplets and aerosols while cleaning, separating, growing/propagating, collecting, transporting mechanically removing or eradicating over-growing corals by pouring boiling water on live rock as well as cleaning home marine aquariums.

Also as suggested, DO NOT bleach the tank but use a vinegar/water solution

 

[jeeper07]

Ok thank you.

Im not convinced on Palytoxin and may be an allergic reaction but you would have seen increased symptoms at this point. being in health Care in the past, I wrote this a while back for insight:
Health care person here:

You may have had a reaction with saltwater as I would many years ago as soon as my hand went into saltwater. But what my concern is - your symptoms you mentioned. Some symptoms of Pox and zoa poisoning are:

• Flu-like symptoms – Chills, Fever, Headaches, Cough, Sore Throat, Chest Pains, Muscle Aches
• Rash, Itching, Numbness in Affected Area
• Trouble Breathing, Shortness of Breath, Runny Nose, Wheezing
• Dizziness, Blurred Vision, Fatigue, Irregular Heart Beat
• Possible Foul Smell or Bitter/Metallic Taste in Mouth

Me personally, I would consult with poison center 1-800-222-1222. It is free and confidential and they can assess your symptoms and make proper recommendations. Benadryl should help BUT speak with them first Before taking any medication.

Here is helpful reading:

Symptoms Of Palytoxin Poisoning​

Although poisonings are relatively rare it is important to be aware that Palytoxin poses a significant risk to human safety due to its extreme toxicity. Symptoms can occur and progress rapidly within minutes to hours after handling coral.
Severity depends on how long people have been exposed, the distance they were from the location where coral was being handled, the route of exposure and the presence of cuts or abrasions on hands (Palytoxin can easily pass through a skin wound and reach the bloodstream).
Symptoms include:

• Flu-like symptoms such as coughing, fever, chills, sore throat, headache, muscle aches, chest pain, respiratory distress.
• Skin symptoms: rash (hives), itching, numbness, dermatitis.
• Respiratory symptoms: wheezing, tight chest, shortness of breath, runny nose, fluid in the lungs.
• Gastrointestinal symptoms: abdominal cramps, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea.
• Ocular symptoms, conjunctivitis, photophobia, blurred vision, corneal ulceration.(eyes in general)
• Neurological symptoms: fatigue, dizziness, speech disturbance, bitter metallic taste, tremors, tingling or numbness of extremities.
• Muscle symptoms: pain, weakness, cramps, spasms.
• Cardiac effects: irregular, slow, fast heart rate, cardiac muscle damage, low or high blood pressure

Severe cases report muscle breakdown, kidney failure, coma and death from cardiac or respiratory failure. There is no specific treatment or antidote for Palytoxin poisoning with medical treatment limited generally to supportive care.
and contacting Poison control was the first good initiative you made.

• Most aquarium-related cases occur as a result of skin exposure after prolonged handling through cuts on hands or inhalation of coral dust, steam vapors or water droplets and aerosols while cleaning, separating, growing/propagating, collecting, transporting mechanically removing or eradicating over-growing corals by pouring boiling water on live rock as well as cleaning home marine aquariums.

Also as suggested, DO NOT bleach the tank but use a vinegar/water solution

Ok thank you. How much vinegar for a 800 gallon tank would I need?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ok thank you.

Ok thank you. How much vinegar for a 800 gallon tank would I need?

.5 m/l per 10 gallons is general rule. I would start with 20-25 ml total as it may upset some coral at higher levels

 

[jeeper07]

.5 m/l per 10 gallons is general rule. I would start with 20-25 ml total as it may upset some coral at higher levels

The tank does not have any coral in it at all. I even drained all the saltwater and replaced it with tap water to try to remove any toxins that may still be I there. I’m doing 50% water changes daily with tap water. Would you still use that dosage you recommended?

 

[vetteguy53081]

The tank does not have any coral in it at all. I even drained all the saltwater and replaced it with tap water to try to remove any toxins that may still be I there. I’m doing 50% water changes daily with tap water. Would you still use that dosage you recommended?

Yes

 

[jeeper07]

Yes

Seems like very little for 800 gallons? Not even 1 ounce?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Seems like very little for 800 gallons? Not even 1 ounce?

It is but I realize now, tank is empty. With that, you can apply 60ml

 

[fish farmer]

People have had adverse reactions to cyano also. I dont know if cyano contains palytoxin or not.

Cyanotoxins.

It's interesting that folks go right to palytoxin when cyanobacteria blooms close beaches and dogs drink tainted water and die.

I'm not a doctor or an expert on cyanobacteria, but it seems you have a lot of rock to harbor whatever and you did mention cyano, but I'm pretty sure you have to ingest it for what you experienced.

 

[jeeper07]

It is but I realize now, tank is empty. With that, you can apply 60ml

Ok, so I’ll change 50% out tonight and then add the 60ml. How long do I leave that in there?

 

[twentyleagues]

Cyanotoxins.

It's interesting that folks go right to palytoxin when cyanobacteria blooms close beaches and dogs drink tainted water and die.

I'm not a doctor or an expert on cyanobacteria, but it seems you have a lot of rock to harbor whatever and you did mention cyano, but I'm pretty sure you have to ingest it for what you experienced.

yeah my thought exactly. I think even breathing near a cyano outbreak in the ocean can cause issue. But, I guess the waves crashing on the beach would be aerosolizing it.