Palytoxin chemistry

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I posted this today in a different thread, but it might get more interested viewers here.

A note on palytoxin, a professor I tangentially knew in graduate school recently died (Yoshito Kishi; Jan 9 2023). His lab of students and post docs was the first to fully synthesize palytoxin, which was a monumental chemical feat at the time, taking many people many years, and was thought impossible by many others.

I did not join his research group for a variety of reasons, but at the annual meeting where he presented to new students what they might work on, he mentioned that some students had to be sent to Hawaii to collect zooanthid samples to extract some true examples of palytoxin for comparison.

He stated that he actually had a hard time convincing students to go. I assumed it was not sarcasm, and decided his lab was not for me. lol

This is the structure,a nd the article below has more on the chemistry of palytoxin:

Palytoxin - American Chemical Society

American Chemical Society: Chemistry for Life.

www.acs.org

 

[taricha]

"Activated carbon adsorbed 99.7% of PLTXs contained in the seawater and this represents a good strategy for preventing aquarium hobbyist poisonings."
From An aquarium hobbyist poisoning: Identification of new palytoxins in Palythoa cf. toxica and complete detoxification of the aquarium water by activated carbon

So we assume GAC helps mitigate the toxin in the water, but of course that doesn't help you if you scrub the rocks or directly contact the coral tissue etc.

We also presume GAC would remove toxins from dinoflagellates, (ovatoxin, saxitoxin, others) because ovatoxin is called a "palytoxin analogue". But I don't know enough to be confident on that.

 

[A Young Reefer]

Holy long carbon chain!

 

[mbmartin06]

I’m assuming this from the linked article at the end is the same “Dino’s” that seem to be an issue in some tanks?

 

[BurgerFish]

Ozone can also remove the toxin?

 

[ChiCity]

science is amazing

 

[taricha]

I’m assuming this from the linked article at the end is the same “Dino’s” that seem to be an issue in some tanks?

Yep, one of the two most common genera seen in hobby tanks - ostreopsis.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

So Joe did not need to reboot his 20,000 gallon tank at the Long Island Aquarium, he only need to run carbon?!

 

[mbmartin06]

Yep, one of the two most common genera seen in hobby tanks - ostreopsis.

So when people say they are toxic they are actually a special kind of toxic

 

[taricha]

So Joe did not need to reboot his 20,000 gallon tank at the Long Island Aquarium, he only need to run carbon?!

Well since most of the dino toxins are in the cells, (and some in the mucus too) GAC has limits even if it does work in the water.
Anecdotally, even running fresh GAC doesn't seem to reduce livestock loss (corals and clean up crew) very much.

 

[taricha]

So Joe did not need to reboot his 20,000 gallon tank at the Long Island Aquarium, he only need to run carbon?!

BTW, I just watched the reefbeef episode where Joe and the hosts share their palytoxin experiences. Totally wild stuff.

 

[rennjidk]

BTW, I just watched the reefbeef episode where Joe and the hosts share their palytoxin experiences. Totally wild stuff.

What gives me peace of mind is hearing actual accounts of toxic exposure like Joe's in this video, and Julian's when he did his presentation. I've handled a lot of Zoas, and I've never had anything close to a real reaction, but all the forums are flooded with them. I can't tell you how many threads I've read or videos I've seen of people recounting their "deadly palytoxin encounter" . It's always a story about how they got a headache the day after working in their tank, or being squirted in the eye fragging, which left them with a red eye for a few hours. Not to mention the fact that no one ever claims to have been poisoned by dinos, which almost everyone has in their tank to some extent. It seems like it's extremely hard/unlikely to gain exposure unless you're doing so under extreme circumstances

 

[TankCandy]

I have been hit with this a couple times. Sucks every time.. The second was the most severe.. I remember the drop hitting my lip on the band saw and 2 hours later all hell started break loose. I tell my loved one whenever i cut coral now..

 

[rennjidk]

I have been hit with this 4 times. Sucks every time.. The second was the most severe.. I remember the drop hitting my lip on the band saw and 2 hours later all hell started break loose. I tell my loved one whenever i cut coral now..

What were you fragging?

 

[bushdoc]

Not to mention the fact that no one ever claims to have been poisoned by dinos, which almost everyone has in their tank to some extent.

How many people drink their tank water or eat dino salad or use it in nebulizer?
Many people has been poisoned by dinoflagellates from Ocean/ Sea.
One of the form is Ciguatera poisoning, other respiratory symptoms, diarrhea after you swam in water with dino outbreak.
As far as palytoxin is regarde, it seem to be produced by certain strains of zoas and there has been proven cases of poisoning in medical literature.

 

[rennjidk]

How many people drink their tank water or eat dino salad or use it in nebulizer?
Many people has been poisoned by dinoflagellates from Ocean/ Sea.

Yes, but I'm not talking about the sea. I'm talking about our tanks, lol.

 

[rennjidk]

As far as palytoxin is regarde, it seem to be produced by certain strains of zoas and there has been proven cases of poisoning in medical literature.

That's my point. Almost all accounts revolve around what people call "Texas trash palys." I'm not denying the existence of palytoxin or its effects. I'm just saying that in a home tank environment it doesn't seem to pose much of a threat outside of extreme circumstances. If it did, we'd be seeing WIDE spread reports of it.

 

[TankCandy]

What were you fragging?

Yes. I always use glasses and in a well ventilated room. I only do it outside and use a full face shield now. I also take a shower right after.

I believe it was the Hawaiian People Eaters that did it to me or the Big Eye Paylps but i don't think i cut any of those that day.

 

[rennjidk]

Yes. I always use glasses and in a well ventilated room. I only do it outside and use a full face shield now. I also take a shower right after.

I believe it was the Hawaiian People Eaters that did it to me or the Big Eye Paylps but i don't think i cut any of those that day.

More people need to report which type of zoa/paly they were working with and what happened. Everyone wants to know which ones are toxic/not, but people never follow up. We could get some kind of R2R toxicity spreadsheet going (completely anecdotal ofc, but better than nothing).

 

[rennjidk]

Here's an actual question for all of you chemists. Would you abstain from keeping paly/zoa in your own DT? Do you honestly feel that the risk is too great, or do you believe that they do not pose a significant risk with normal handling and reef keeping practices? @Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha