Palytoxin

[twentyleagues]

Here’s the story: https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilt...cle_3d5b6f13-637d-5b2d-86c3-cdd614ba7b08.html

“The idea was to take everything out of the aquarium and start from scratch to get rid of the algae outbreak,” he said. “That’s why I used vinegar, because I really wanted to give it a complete reset, which takes time.”

"He said he poured vinegar into his tank at about 6 p.m. While he believed it was empty, still concealed within the aquarium’s sand bed were a handful of palythoas, which, after interacting with the vinegar, started to bubble and spew out particles of its odourless poison into the air.

By 9 p.m., Evans came down with what he called bronchitis-like symptoms, including a heavy chest. Within a half-hour, his husband, Chris Stewart, followed suit with convulsions and trouble breathing. His dogs set off the final alarm bell shortly thereafter, with the four of them shaking and one having difficulty holding up her head."

Here's a pic. I never trust palys that look like this, although I have no way of really knowing:

Why would you put vinegar in a tank that still had sand in it ( other than carbon dosing)? How is that going to clean anything? So cause and effect. Had he removed everything and then went to work with the vinegar that would not have happened. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Why would you put vinegar in a tank that still had sand in it ( other than carbon dosing)? How is that going to clean anything? So cause and effect. Had he removed everything and then went to work with the vinegar that would not have happened. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

I think the takeaway here is several fold.

He didn't know better.

Most reef keepers don't know better. Be it palys or general reef and chemical information.

With regard to palytoxin -- When those same folks who don't know better go "look" to find out if they are safe...

The vast majority of responses they find range from general "Don't' worry, it is over blown hype just don't eat them" to "Meh, I eat paly's with my bacon in the morning and my wife makes wreaths out of them after drying them... the doom and gloom anti-paly crowd is ruining the hobby".

 

[twentyleagues]

I think the takeaway here is several fold.

He didn't know better.

Most reef keepers don't know better. Be it palys or general reef and chemical information.

With regard to palytoxin -- When those same folks who don't know better go "look" to find out if they are safe...

The vast majority of responses they find range from general "Don't' worry, it is over blown hype just don't eat them" to "Meh, I eat paly's with my bacon in the morning and my wife makes wreaths out of them after drying them... the doom and gloom anti-paly crowd is ruining the hobby".

I am not going to disagree. Palytoxin is dangerous and it comes from more than palys and zoas too. My issue with this one in particular is the "use?" "misuse"? of vinegar to clean a tank. I mean you dont have to be a reefer to understand you need to clean all the big chunks out before you start using a cleaning agent in pretty much any cleaning of anything. It does you no good to clean your toilet with toilet bowl cleaner with logs and tp floating in it. Right? Why would you treat that tank any differently?

 

[SonOfaGoat]

A scientific forum. Not just a bunch of people who think "zoas bad. palytoxin kill."

If I could downvote this I would. That's a silly suggestion. Obviously this is 100% the place!

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

And we have had members "accidentally" snort Hanna reagents.... so, you never know

Keep your weekend shenanigans to yourself

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

I am not going to disagree. Palytoxin is dangerous and it comes from more than palys and zoas too. My issue with this one in particular is the "use?" "misuse"? of vinegar to clean a tank. I mean you dont have to be a reefer to understand you need to clean all the big chunks out before you start using a cleaning agent in pretty much any cleaning of anything. It does you no good to clean your toilet with toilet bowl cleaner with logs and tp floating in it. Right? Why would you treat that tank any differently?

I think they just misunderstood and didn't consider that the palys could embed in the sandbed. Definitely a strange decision but every once in a while we all make a mistake. Probably wanted to make sure everything in the sandbed was dead.

 

[twentyleagues]

I think they just misunderstood and didn't consider that the palys could embed in the sandbed. Definitely a strange decision but every once in a while we all make a mistake. Probably wanted to make sure everything in the sandbed was dead.

Silly mistake but a reminder that this hobby has some real risks.

It does have a lot of risks.
I think some of the risks can be avoided with common sense though. I know thats a lot to ask for anymore.

 

[MnFish1]

Why would you put vinegar in a tank that still had sand in it ( other than carbon dosing)? How is that going to clean anything? So cause and effect. Had he removed everything and then went to work with the vinegar that would not have happened. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Actually - its not uncommon at all as a FishMedic often get questions on how to clean a tank - Vinegar or Bleach (diluted) are the 2 most common and many clean sand and coral with this (as well as their glass - which can also contain algae which can have palytoxin. So - though I personally wouldn't do it - many people in this forum routinely recommend it after a disease. IE - I wouldn't call it 'stupid' either - since - its pretty common for people to just clean their sand with water - which would do the same thing with regards to zoas that may be 'hiding' as vinegar.

 

[twentyleagues]

Actually - its not uncommon at all as a FishMedic often get questions on how to clean a tank - Vinegar or Bleach (diluted) are the 2 most common and many clean sand and coral with this (as well as their glass - which can also contain algae which can have palytoxin. So - though I personally wouldn't do it - many people in this forum routinely recommend it after a disease. IE - I wouldn't call it 'stupid' either - since - its pretty common for people to just clean their sand with water - which would do the same thing with regards to zoas that may be 'hiding' as vinegar.

I have never heard of someone using vinegar to clean sand thats crazy. Rinse it or replace it. I would not dump vinegar in a tank containing rock or sand, take that stuff out first. As for using vinegar I take whatever I am using the vinegar on outside vinegar vapor really irritates my eyes, nose, lungs splashed on my skin it really irrtates that too So I am careful with it. I am much less touchy with bleach but I am still vary careful, and I wouldnt be dumping bleach in a tank containing rocks and sand. That just makes cleaning the mess so much more intensive. I guess I should not have said the play stupid game thing but we are talking about caustic chemicals not to mention all the other stuff going on here. Lack of common sense.

Edit Wait a minute you advise cleaning corals with bleach or vinegar! I must have missed that part. How does that work? Sounds like dead coral, is that the goal?

 

[MnFish1]

I have never heard of someone using vinegar to clean sand thats crazy. Rinse it or replace it. I would not dump vinegar in a tank containing rock or sand, take that stuff out first. As for using vinegar I take whatever I am using the vinegar on outside vinegar vapor really irritates my eyes, nose, lungs splashed on my skin it really irrtates that too So I am careful with it. I am much less touchy with bleach but I am still vary careful, and I wouldnt be dumping bleach in a tank containing rocks and sand. That just makes cleaning the mess so much more intensive. I guess I should not have said the play stupid game thing but we are talking about caustic chemicals not to mention all the other stuff going on here. Lack of common sense.

Edit Wait a minute you advise cleaning corals with bleach or vinegar! I must have missed that part. How does that work? Sounds like dead coral, is that the goal?

You misread (and I wasn't completely clear) - obviously - cleaning this way would kill everything in the tank - which in the disease forum is often the goal - i.e. the person is wanting to 'start over'. But - yes - for the few people that want to do this (and I recommend against it every time) - the goal is to kill everything. Most of the time it's people with FOWLR's - I guess I would have to say. I would say the vast majority of people don't realize the cyanobacteria can have palytoxin, as can fish, and other inverts beside Zoas.

Edit - and - I wouldn't use full strength vinegar or bleach were I to use it - but rather - in the diluted concentrations recommended

Edit 2 - What I mainly meant with the 'coral and sand' was 'rock and sand' - which sometimes contains coral if the person wants to start over.

 

[twentyleagues]

You misread (and I wasn't completely clear) - obviously - cleaning this way would kill everything in the tank - which in the disease forum is often the goal - i.e. the person is wanting to 'start over'. But - yes - for the few people that want to do this (and I recommend against it every time) - the goal is to kill everything. Most of the time it's people with FOWLR's - I guess I would have to say. I would say the vast majority of people don't realize the cyanobacteria can have palytoxin, as can fish, and other inverts beside Zoas.

Edit - and - I wouldn't use full strength vinegar or bleach were I to use it - but rather - in the diluted concentrations recommended

Edit 2 - What I mainly meant with the 'coral and sand' was 'rock and sand' - which sometimes contains coral if the person wants to start over.

I have heard of bleaching rock sure, but not in a tank. Use a tote or brute or whatever and get it out of the house.

Whenever these threads pop up I am typically saying its not only zoas and palys that can have palytoxin, fish, inverts (other than corals) other corals, cyano, dynos, and palytoxin isnt really your only health concern in keeping a reef tank or really any fish tank. I got a really bad bacterial infection in 2001 that came from my reef tank. If left unchecked I could have lost the limb possibly my life. It seems to me that these threads are over blown, and a little common sense could have won the day.

 

[MnFish1]

I have heard of bleaching rock sure, but not in a tank. Use a tote or brute or whatever and get it out of the house.

Whenever these threads pop up I am typically saying its not only zoas and palys that can have palytoxin, fish, inverts (other than corals) other corals, cyano, dynos, and palytoxin isnt really your only health concern in keeping a reef tank or really any fish tank. I got a really bad bacterial infection in 2001 that came from my reef tank. If left unchecked I could have lost the limb possibly my life. It seems to me that these threads are over blown, and a little common sense could have won the day.

I don't think it's 'overblown' - only because I would guess that the majority of people don't know what palytoxin is, let alone the different infections, allergic reactions that are possible after getting a scratch on coral. I think all of the 'severe' risks are rare. Including vibrio skin infections - but awareness is important. PS - I also had an episode where I punctured my wrist on something - it was a pin head sized area - that hurt - I washed it and just ignored it. 2 hours later it was redness about 3 inches in diameter. and subsequently (like you) developed into a 3 week antibiotic (mini) disaster.

 

[twentyleagues]

I don't think it's 'overblown' - only because I would guess that the majority of people don't know what palytoxin is, let alone the different infections, allergic reactions that are possible after getting a scratch on coral. I think all of the 'severe' risks are rare. Including vibrio skin infections - but awareness is important. PS - I also had an episode where I punctured my wrist on something - it was a pin head sized area - that hurt - I washed it and just ignored it. 2 hours later it was redness about 3 inches in diameter. and subsequently (like you) developed into a 3 week antibiotic (mini) disaster.

Wow that crazy mine was the palm of my hand. It was a long spine urchin that got me. Unfortunately for me after it happened I went to bed and woke in the morning with red tracers running half way up my arm and spiked a fever of 101. I was hospitalized for 3 days and had a lot of antibiotics I.V. feed to me and a script for when I got out.

I guess my point is you hear this palytoxin stuff all the time and it sounds like people think its end of the world. Nobody talks about or sensationalizes what happened to us. Yes palytoxin is dangerous but there is other stuff in fish tanks that are probably more common and can off you too.

 

[Timfish]

FWIW, here's some links on palytoxin and congenitors for those interested. Of note, palytoxin and congenitors (Ciguatera poisoning) can be found in many organisms besides palys.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320900682_Palytoxin_congeners
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1568988312001618
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0041010189901566
https://www.annemergmed.com/article/S0196-0644(14)00492-2/abstract
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0041010199000938
https://www.acs.org/molecule-of-the-week/archive/p/palytoxin.html
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0041010199000938
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0041008X75900265

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thanks Tim!

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

Can't eat or smoke them either.. ;-)

Well -this could be something that could be researched if done in a controlled environment.

 

[Danjoethepirate]

Palythoa grandis is a known carrier of palytoxin and Hawaiians would dip spear tips in this particular species to increase likelihood of death or illness on contact or non lethal contact prior to tribal wars

Not to be a know it all, but it's actually P. Toxica that Hawaiians used to dip spears in. P. Grandis is endemic to the Caribbean, and Australia oddly enough.

 

[Danjoethepirate]

FWIW, here's some links on palytoxin and congenitors for those interested. Of note, palytoxin and congenitors (Ciguatera poisoning) can be found in many organisms besides palys.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320900682_Palytoxin_congeners
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1568988312001618
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0041010189901566
https://www.annemergmed.com/article/S0196-0644(14)00492-2/abstract
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0041010199000938
https://www.acs.org/molecule-of-the-week/archive/p/palytoxin.html
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0041010199000938
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0041008X75900265

Nice info!

 

[Danjoethepirate]

Also for anyone reading this far, the ones I've had the worst time with killing things in my tank and making me a little sick are the "cultivar" Captain Jerks.

 

[VintageReefer]

Not to be a know it all, but it's actually P. Toxica that Hawaiians used to dip spears in. P. Grandis is endemic to the Caribbean, and Australia oddly enough.

I stand corrected. I found and re-read the article where I learned about this and sure enough, it’s P. Toxica

Funny how the mind can alter things after a few years…am I the only one lol ?