PH won't go up, stays at 7.6-7.8

[FreeEnergyReefer]

Its a 75g tank mixed reef in my living room. Parameters tested yesterday are: Alk-9.3, Calcium-406, Magnesium-1490, Salinity-1.028, Phosphate-0 (api test), Nitrate-24, PH-7.75, Iron-0, Potassium-440, Iodine-0.06. If I leave the door open all day ph doesn't change. Although it does go up when I dose kalk,but only temporarily then goes back down. I would like to atleast get my ph up to 8. My resolution is I'm hooking kalk up to a dosing pump and grabbing a nice size air pump hook some bubblers up in the fug and steady dose kalk. Any ideas and/or what works for you would be greatly appreciated thankyou!

 

[Redfoxtang]

First question is how are you testing for PH? Second is do you have sufficient amount of surface agitation for gas exchange?

 

[paul01609]

If your running a skimmer can you run a air line to the outside so it’s pulling in fresh air.
you would just keeps your levels stable which they are

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Since limewater helps, there's probably still elevated CO2 in your house. Just leaving a door open many not exchange much air if there's not a breeze moving air through the house. Either that, or you don't have enough air/water exchange to work the CO2 out of the tank water.

Take a cup of water outside and aerate it for about 10 minutes. Then, measure the pH. If the pH is around 8.2 or higher, you have high CO2 in your house. If the pH is not around 8.2 or higher, there's something wrong with your pH probe.

 

[taricha]

Take a cup of water outside and aerate it for about 10 minutes. Then, measure the pH. If the pH is around 8.2 or higher, you have high CO2 in your house. If the pH is not around 8.2 or higher, there's something wrong with your pH probe.

What chipmunk said. pH probes can be way off, and pH calibration solutions don't stay good forever. This should be the first move in every "My pH is too low (or high)" thread.
(I will say CO2 equilibrium is slow, so I don't know for sure if 10 min gets you to equilibrium - but it'll move it significantly in the right direction.)
also this for more details: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

 

[Joeg]

If your probe is ok and you have a skimmer but can't run the airline outside, I think you'd find a co2 scrubber beneficial.

 

[Anthrax15]

Cheap options:

1. Run a line outside for your skimmer intake
2. Add a powerhead or two to break the surface tension
3. Leave a door/window cracked
4. Dose Kalk into your ATO

More demanding option would be to get a BRS Co2 scrubber. That'll for sure bring it up but some people are put off by how fast the media burns through.

What test kit are you using for PH?

 

[FreeEnergyReefer]

First question is how are you testing for PH? Second is do you have sufficient amount of surface agitation for gas exchange?

I'm testing ph with the seneye reef & the stupid api test reads the same as the seneye 7.75 now and gas exchange I have 2 gyre 4ks in the display and hydros in the sump and fuge pointed at the top.

 

[FreeEnergyReefer]

Cheap options:

1. Run a line outside for your skimmer intake
2. Add a powerhead or two to break the surface tension
3. Leave a door/window cracked
4. Dose Kalk into your ATO

More demanding option would be to get a BRS Co2 scrubber. That'll for sure bring it up but some people are put off by how fast the media burns through.

What test kit are you using for PH?

I'm doing all those except #5. I got kalk and 2part hooked up to a doser still doing the math on my alk dkh. Should be doseing tomorrow.

 

[FreeEnergyReefer]

If your probe is ok and you have a skimmer but can't run the airline outside, I think you'd find a co2 scrubber beneficial.

I have a co2 scrubber hooked up and it made 0 difference. I'm serious if anything it made it worse. I dont understand. My gf literally is obsessed with plants and she just moved all her plants inside for winter so co2 in the house should be good.

 

[FreeEnergyReefer]

What chipmunk said. pH probes can be way off, and pH calibration solutions don't stay good forever. This should be the first move in every "My pH is too low (or high)" thread.
(I will say CO2 equilibrium is slow, so I don't know for sure if 10 min gets you to equilibrium - but it'll move it significantly in the right direction.)
also this for more details: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/

Ok I'll try the cup outside thx

 

[Joeg]

That's interesting. I added one a few weeks ago since winter is a time when I struggle to keep ph up and I can't run a line outside. Before adding the scrubber my ph would be around 7.9-8 on days when I had to keep the windows closed (winter & hot summer days with the AC on) but would increase to 8.1 on days when I could open the windows.

I added the scrubber on a day when the windows were closed so I could get an idea of the bump I might see in winter and within 2 hours it went from 8 to 8.2 and by that evening was at 8.3. On days when I can open the windows it almost reaches 8.4.

We have lots of plants too and I thought those might help but did not see that they affected tank ph in any way. The only thing that's helped is that brs scrubber and media. I'm not sure about media consumption yet but if I have to spend $5 a month for half of the year I'm ok with it.

Not sure why you didn't see any benefit from adding one. The only things that come to mind are whether you have the intake tube hooked to the correct end. I know it sounds stupid but we've all done it so you might want to double check and make sure it's connected to the one marked 'in'. Also, is it possible that the canister is not tight enough or the tubing is leaking at some point (I had a pinhole in mine that took a while to locate) ? One way to see if you have any vacuum when connecting the tubing to your skimmer would be to look at the skimmer water/bubble level when you plug in the tubing. It should fluctuate a little bit since you're essentially restricting the air input a little. The only other suggestion I have would be to check the water in the bottom of the canister. I think they say to add a teaspoon although I'm not sure what function it provides since they also say to make sure the media does not get wet.

I have a co2 scrubber hooked up and it made 0 difference. I'm serious if anything it made it worse. I dont understand. My gf literally is obsessed with plants and she just moved all her plants inside for winter so co2 in the house should be good.

 

[ADAM]

Organics could be limiting pH. I dealt with that for years until a few years back. It was a real head scratcher before discovering this issue with dissolved/dissolving organics and the relation to pH.
Once I read over an article or two and applied some corrective measures I’m consistently over 8. Watching the pH trending, down or up, I can get a feel for what’s going on in the tank before larger issues arise as well. I have not had any algae or cyano issues since the “cleanup” time as well.

 

[ADAM]

Also if a CO2 scrubber didn’t seem to have much impact I would have to double down on organics, or another “water issue” as the limiting factor. You are taking out the variable of indoor air CO being the cause with the CO media.


The water in the CO2 scrubber is to raise the humidity in the canister so the media doesn’t dry out and allow dust from the media to be pulled into the water column.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Iron-0,

I'd stop measuring iron. Kits cannot detect low enough levels to be useful, unless you overdose it,.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Organics could be limiting pH. I dealt with that for years until a few years back. It was a real head scratcher before discovering this issue with dissolved/dissolving organics and the relation to pH.
Once I read over an article or two and applied some corrective measures I’m consistently over 8. Watching the pH trending, down or up, I can get a feel for what’s going on in the tank before larger issues arise as well. I have not had any algae or cyano issues since the “cleanup” time as well.

It is not clear to me what you are claiming about organics and pH.

Ordinary organics sitting in the water have no effect on pH in seawater. Carbonate alkalinity and CO2 are the only determinants of pH.

If you are adding lots of organics (like organic carbon dosing), that can certainly drive down pH because when they are metabolized, the end product is CO2.

Removing organics before they are metabolized may reduce the CO2 somewhat, but the main drives of Co2 is typically the CO2 level in the home air. Just having organics in the water is not itself a cause of low ph.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We have lots of plants too and I thought those might help but did not see that they affected tank ph in any way. The only thing that's helped is that brs scrubber and media. I'm not sure about media consumption yet but if I have to spend $5 a month for half of the year I'm ok with it.

They won't unless it is a jungle. Way too much CO2 for them to absorb.

 

[ADAM]

It is not clear to me what you are claiming about organics and pH.

Ordinary organics sitting in the water have no effect on pH in seawater. Carbonate alkalinity and CO2 are the only determinants of pH.

If you are adding lots of organics (like organic carbon dosing), that can certainly drive down pH because when they are metabolized, the end product is CO2.

Removing organics before they are metabolized may reduce the CO2 somewhat, but the main drives of Co2 is typically the CO2 level in the home air. Just having organics in the water is not itself a cause of low ph.

The nitrogen cycle acids forming from organics breaking down in water column.

I dealt with low pH for years and after reading over one of your articles in Reef Keeping Magazine “Low pH: Causes and Cures” http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/
Section: Low pH and Causes: #5
I found the info about the nitrogen cycle creating acids, which turns to CO2. Apparently I was over feeding; after cleaning up around the rocks, turkey baster-ing the holes I could reach, replacing the filter socks and/or felt pad(s) more frequently, and cutting back a lot on feedings, and type of foods, I saw a great improvement on pH levels.

Seemed fitting since the CO2 scrubber had little to no effect. Did I interpret that information wrongly?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The nitrogen cycle acids forming from organics breaking down in water column.

I dealt with low pH for years and after reading over one of your articles in Reef Keeping Magazine “Low pH: Causes and Cures” http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/
Section: Low pH and Causes: #5
I found the info about the nitrogen cycle creating acids, which turns to CO2. Apparently I was over feeding; after cleaning up around the rocks, turkey baster-ing the holes I could reach, replacing the filter socks and/or felt pad(s) more frequently, and cutting back a lot on feedings, and type of foods, I saw a great improvement on pH levels.

Seemed fitting since the CO2 scrubber had little to no effect. Did I interpret that information wrongly?

Just to clarify, when nitrate is increasing from the nitrogen cycle, alkalinity is depleted and that lowers pH. If nitrate is stable, alkalintiya nd pH relted to it willb e stable. if nitrate is declining (beign consumed) alkalintiy is added and pH is boosted.

When organics are being degraded to CO2, CO2 is being produced, lowering pH. Thus, I consider that a CO2 problem, not necessarily an organic problem, but perhaps that's a semantic difference.

 

[ADAM]

Just to clarify, when nitrate is increasing from the nitrogen cycle, alkalinity is depleted and that lowers pH. If nitrate is stable, alkalintiya nd pH relted to it willb e stable. if nitrate is declining (beign consumed) alkalintiy is added and pH is boosted.

When organics are being degraded to CO2, CO2 is being produced, lowering pH. Thus, I consider that a CO2 problem, not necessarily an organic problem, but perhaps that's a semantic difference.

Gotcha, thanks for the insight.