Phosphate in fresh Tropic Marin Pro Salt Mix

[SheldonC]

Try another along side your TM, there are salts out there that claim not to have po4.

I was thinking about trying Red Sea Coral Pro salt, additionally for the more elevated elements out the gate.

 

[Reef.]

I was thinking about trying Red Sea Coral Pro salt, additionally for the more elevated elements out the gate.

Most go for the blue bucket, just the standard Red Sea, the pro has really high alk, it does claim to be po4 free.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Refreshing this thread, but I've been using Tropic Marin Pro Reef since I started my system (handful of months ago) and had high PO4 from the start. Decided to mix up a brand new batch of salt and test - .1 PO4. I thought, maybe it's a bad batch, and ordered another box. Sure enough, another test of fresh saltwater was .13 PO4. I have a 5 stage RO/DI system with no TDS being read. I'm very curious if I need to try a new salt.

Have you tested the water you use for the new salt water? What does your tank water read?

I do not consider 0.1 ppm phosphate to be a problem in new salt water, but I'm also not convinced it is coming from the salt mix.

 

[SheldonC]

Have you tested the water you use for the new salt water? What does your tank water read?

I do not consider 0.1 ppm phosphate to be a problem in new salt water, but I'm also not convinced it is coming from the salt mix.

No, but my Hanna checker doesn't work to test RO water and I'm not all that interested in purchasing the expensive test needed to get an accurate reading of RO water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, but my Hanna checker doesn't work to test RO water and I'm not all that interested in purchasing the expensive test needed to get an accurate reading of RO water.

Your discussions seem to be suggesting the salt is the cause. IMO, it most likely is not. RO/DI water often has detectable phosphate in it as it is one of the easiest ions to get through a DI, even at low TDS.

Which checker are you using?

The level you report (0.1 ppm) is also unimportant relative to other sources, IMO, even if present in all of your top off water as well as water changes:

Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/ But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example). Here's the original recipe link...

www.reef2reef.com

Comparison of Food Sources of Phosphate to Other Sources
What about other sources of phosphate, like the “crappy” RO/DI water containing 0.05 ppm phosphate? A similar analysis will show it equally unimportant relative to foods.

Let’s assume that the aquarist in question adds 1% of the total tank volume each day with RO/DI to replace evaporation. Simple math shows that the 0.05 ppm in the RO/DI becomes 0.0005 ppm added each day to the phosphate concentration in the aquarium. That dilution step is critical, taking a scary number like 0.05 ppm down to an almost meaningless 0.0005 ppm daily addition. Since that 0.0005 ppm is 40-600 times lower than the amount added each day in foods (Table 4), it does not seem worthy of the angst many aquarists put on such measurements. That said, tap water could have as much as 5 ppm phosphate, and that value could then become a dominating source of phosphate and would be quite problematic. Purifying tap water is important for this and many other reasons.

 

[areefer01]

Let me note up front that I know our systems and environments are different. Having said that I currently use TM Pro Reef salt and it mixes such that I can't detect phosphate. I also had similar results when using their Bio Actif salt. In the case of Pro Reef salt I mix and will let it be for a day or two. With Bio Actif I mix and use within 6 hours. I tested using Hanna's checker - forget the model, sorry.

Have you considered the bucket or container you are using? Again not that it matters but I mix in a 20 gallon lab drum made of hdpe by Eagle. I have also used the more common gray brute 44 gallon bins with similar results.

I normally wouldn't care but as my current phosphate is 2.2 I was curious if my tap water to rodi or storage was the problem. I tested freshly made salt and it was fine. In my case the substrate and/or rocks or both have it bound up so tight like how a golf ball is made my only solution is to probably find the SeaKlear to RODI recipe and start a slow daily dose. Anything else depletes too quick to be cost effective (like GFO - and that stuff is messy ).

TL; DR - container?

 

[SheldonC]

Your discussions seem to be suggesting the salt is the cause. IMO, it most likely is not. RO/DI water often has detectable phosphate in it as it is one of the easiest ions to get through a DI, even at low TDS.

Which checker are you using?

The level you report (0.1 ppm) is also unimportant relative to other sources, IMO, even if present in all of your top off water as well as water changes:

Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/ But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example). Here's the original recipe link...

www.reef2reef.com

Comparison of Food Sources of Phosphate to Other Sources
What about other sources of phosphate, like the “crappy” RO/DI water containing 0.05 ppm phosphate? A similar analysis will show it equally unimportant relative to foods.

Let’s assume that the aquarist in question adds 1% of the total tank volume each day with RO/DI to replace evaporation. Simple math shows that the 0.05 ppm in the RO/DI becomes 0.0005 ppm added each day to the phosphate concentration in the aquarium. That dilution step is critical, taking a scary number like 0.05 ppm down to an almost meaningless 0.0005 ppm daily addition. Since that 0.0005 ppm is 40-600 times lower than the amount added each day in foods (Table 4), it does not seem worthy of the angst many aquarists put on such measurements. That said, tap water could have as much as 5 ppm phosphate, and that value could then become a dominating source of phosphate and would be quite problematic. Purifying tap water is important for this and many other reasons.

I'm using the Hanna ULR PO4 checker.

So, what's the solution here? Do I need to put a whole-home water purifying system up, in addition to the RO/DI unit, just to have water that is a good place to start? Right now I feed MAYBE 1/4 cube of frozen food a day because I have very few fish. If the purification system is the answer, then this hobby isn't worth the juice squeezed.

 

[SheldonC]

Let me note up front that I know our systems and environments are different. Having said that I currently use TM Pro Reef salt and it mixes such that I can't detect phosphate. I also had similar results when using their Bio Actif salt. In the case of Pro Reef salt I mix and will let it be for a day or two. With Bio Actif I mix and use within 6 hours. I tested using Hanna's checker - forget the model, sorry.

Have you considered the bucket or container you are using? Again not that it matters but I mix in a 20 gallon lab drum made of hdpe by Eagle. I have also used the more common gray brute 44 gallon bins with similar results.

I normally wouldn't care but as my current phosphate is 2.2 I was curious if my tap water to rodi or storage was the problem. I tested freshly made salt and it was fine. In my case the substrate and/or rocks or both have it bound up so tight like how a golf ball is made my only solution is to probably find the SeaKlear to RODI recipe and start a slow daily dose. Anything else depletes too quick to be cost effective (like GFO - and that stuff is messy ).

TL; DR - container?

The container used is a 32 gallon brute container, which came highly recommended as the "one" most reefers use.

 

[reef_ranch]

I use only TM Pro. My tank phosphate is below .07. I have a huge bioload of fish and feed heavily. It's not the salt.

Sometimes this hobby take alot of squeeze. Mostly patience.

 

[SheldonC]

I use only TM Pro. My tank phosphate is below .07. I have a huge bioload of fish and feed heavily. It's not the salt.

Sometimes this hobby take alot of squeeze. Mostly patience.

Definitely worth the squeeze, but right now I'm at the losing end before the water even makes it into the tank. Can't win when that happens.

So it sounds like it's not the salt (which I'm relieved by, I like TM), but now I need to figure out what to do next. Would buying a 7-stage RO unit be of any help? Maybe I put in a Santa Monica algae turf scrubber and not even worry about what's coming out of the RO unit.

 

[areefer01]

I'm using the Hanna ULR PO4 checker.

So, what's the solution here? Do I need to put a whole-home water purifying system up, in addition to the RO/DI unit, just to have water that is a good place to start? Right now I feed MAYBE 1/4 cube of frozen food a day because I have very few fish. If the purification system is the answer, then this hobby isn't worth the juice squeezed.

RHF gave sound advise in the above post, 45. I think you may be worrying about something that doesn't need to be.

If anything make a gallon of water in a different container and see how that test result goes. Maybe a glass beaker or something clean and labeled as food grade. I didn't catch what your display phosphate number is nor how old it is but again phosphate is one of those things we never really tested for back in the day until someone created a test kit for it.

I'm not saying ignore it but I'm also saying if the display test result is within normal and it is trending that way then you are worrying over spilled milk.

Edit: one last thing - you can go to PetCo or if you have a fellow hobbyist in your neighborhood, get two cups of salt and make a gallon or two of water. Test that. This way you are not buying a whole bag/box.

 

[reef_ranch]

Definitely worth the squeeze, but right now I'm at the losing end before the water even makes it into the tank. Can't win when that happens.

So it sounds like it's not the salt (which I'm relieved by, I like TM), but now I need to figure out what to do next. Would buying a 7-stage RO unit be of any help? Maybe I put in a Santa Monica algae turf scrubber and not even worry about what's coming out of the RO unit.

How long has the tank been set up? What is your nitrate level? It may just be that you don't have a well established biome that would process the phosphate. Also check your municipal water supply water report. It should let you know the range of phosphate coming into your RO system. Mine has high chloramines and I run extra carbon blocks to deal with that. You may need another stage if your water has high phosphates.

 

[Reef.]

Definitely worth the squeeze, but right now I'm at the losing end before the water even makes it into the tank. Can't win when that happens.

So it sounds like it's not the salt (which I'm relieved by, I like TM), but now I need to figure out what to do next. Would buying a 7-stage RO unit be of any help? Maybe I put in a Santa Monica algae turf scrubber and not even worry about what's coming out of the RO unit.

Think you are not understanding Randy’s post, basically what he is saying is, by the time you add 0.1 po4 water to the tank the tank water dilutes the 0.1 po4 to a number not worth worrying about, and each time you add food to the tank you are likely adding much more than 0.1 po4 to the tank.

Try Red Sea as you said you wanted to check another salt out, this way it would cost you $0 to put your mind at rest, as you can use the Red Sea with the Tropic Marin salt at the same time.

 

[SheldonC]

Think you are not understanding Randy’s post, basically what he is saying is, by the time you add 0.1 po4 water to the tank the tank water dilutes the 0.1 po4 to a number not worth worrying about, and each time you add food to the tank you are likely adding much more than 0.1 po4 to the tank.

Try Red Sea as you said you wanted to check another salt out, this way it would cost you $0 to put your mind at rest, as you can use the Red Sea with the Tropic Marin salt at the same time.

Maybe so, but I'm already dealing with a phosphate problem that was locked up in the rock I purchased secondhand (even though I also bleached it). So that .1 may seem insignificant to most, but when I'm already into the .7-.8 range it makes a difference.

 

[areefer01]

Maybe so, but I'm already dealing with a phosphate problem that was locked up in the rock I purchased secondhand (even though I also bleached it). So that .1 may seem insignificant to most, but when I'm already into the .7-.8 range it makes a difference.

What is your phosphate number that has you so concerned? Is it just the number that you are worried about or is there an algae problem? If algae, what kind and do you have herbiviores?

As noted a few times now the test reading from your freshly made salt mix is not going to cause a problem. A chemist who has also wrote articles since before you started this hobby on the subject knows what he is talking about. Seems odd to me that you are ignoring said advise.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe so, but I'm already dealing with a phosphate problem that was locked up in the rock I purchased secondhand (even though I also bleached it). So that .1 may seem insignificant to most, but when I'm already into the .7-.8 range it makes a difference.

It is worth keeping perspective about whether it is worth doing any particular action.

If you tell your wife to not run the car radio or use the heater fan because it is reducing gas mileage and you need to spend as little for gas as possible, you may be talking about a similar situation.

 

[SheldonC]

What is your phosphate number that has you so concerned? Is it just the number that you are worried about or is there an algae problem? If algae, what kind and do you have herbiviores?

As noted a few times now the test reading from your freshly made salt mix is not going to cause a problem. A chemist who has also wrote articles since before you started this hobby on the subject knows what he is talking about. Seems odd to me that you are ignoring said advise.

What advice? He provided some great data points and insight, I'm not disputing that. But nowhere was "do this to work to your advantage". It's all perspective, and now I understand why folks don't take to forums if they're just going to be belittled, so I'll go back to what works.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What advice? He provided some great data points and insight, I'm not disputing that. But nowhere was "do this to work to your advantage". It's all perspective, and now I understand why folks don't take to forums if they're just going to be belittled, so I'll go back to what works.

I’m sorry. I thought I was clear that my advice was to ignore the phosphate in the new salt water, but I guess I wasn’t.

If you want to lower phosphate in the tank, which may or may not be needed since some great tanks have higher phosphate than yours, the best options will be binders such as lanthanum, GFO, or aluminum oxide.

Much slower and likely needing N dosing will be balanced N and P methods such as growing macroalgae or an ATS.

 

[areefer01]

What advice? He provided some great data points and insight, I'm not disputing that. But nowhere was "do this to work to your advantage". It's all perspective, and now I understand why folks don't take to forums if they're just going to be belittled, so I'll go back to what works.

There was no belittling. Just a question as to why you are ignoring the advise. In an earlier post you mentioned if you have to install a whole house water treatment system then this hobby isn't worth the juice squeezed. Your wording.

If you want to debug it further:

• Buy a small bag of instant ocean, mix up water in the same container, test
• Go to your LFS, or neighbor hobbyist if one is near, get some of their salt, mix it up, test
• Similar to above take your salt to friends house or LFS and have them mix up a batch of salt, test
• Get a new food safe bucket, or a glass container that is clean, mix up your salt, test

In every situation above you do the testing with your test kit. Now you can rule out salt, container, or water.

 

[Pod_01]

But nowhere was "do this to work to your advantage".

Couple of things, when testing PO4 in your reef do it in the morning before feeding or in the evening long after feeding.

If you have elevated PO4 I would definitely discontinue following:

Right now I feed MAYBE 1/4 cube of frozen food a day because I have very few fish

and consider high quality pellets. I use following:

They pack lot of nutrients so they feed the fish yet do not pollute your water.

Nothing wrong with frozen food, but from my experience it leads to elevated PO4 and you need to feed more.

Also get coral mass, coral do love PO4 and they will use it up.

As for :

I was thinking about trying Red Sea Coral Pro salt

I would give you my bucket, at this moment it is sitting in my basement collecting dust, but I don’t live in US.
I had no luck with that salt.