Plumbing: ascending drain pipe

[elarbee]

Looking for some basic advice.

I'm planning to build a new display tank, with sump and equipment in a different room. There is quite a bit of distance between the two rooms (~10-15m), and several doorways inbetween. So, I think my only option is to run the pipework under the floor. Planning some renovations to the house, so there is an opportunity to try this. Just not sure if all the physics will work out.

My questions are:

1. Will this work if the drain line has to come vertically upwards before it enters the sump? I feel like this should work, so long as the entrance to the drain is higher than the exit. However, every design I can find online has rains that are strictly descending, so not confident.

2. Even if the physics work out, I feel like I'm creating a world of pain for myself by having a trap in the drain that might not have easy access to cleaning out. Anyone done anything similar in the past, is this a legit concern?

3. Any other concerns I should have about the overall distance on the drain?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Rough diagram attached.

 

[Joe Rice]

1. Will this work if the drain line has to come vertically upwards before it enters the sump? I feel like this should work, so long as the entrance to the drain is higher than the exit. However, every design I can find online has rains that are strictly descending, so not confident.

Should work fine.

2. Even if the physics work out, I feel like I'm creating a world of pain for myself by having a trap in the drain that might not have easy access to cleaning out. Anyone done anything similar in the past, is this a legit concern?

Just throw a couple of unions in there so you can disassemble it for cleaning although you shouldn't need to very often.

3. Any other concerns I should have about the overall distance on the drain?

You might consider using 1.5" pipe or even 2" for the 15 meter run just to minimize drag. My biggest concern would be about blockages and noise. With only a single pipe a blockage could cause your display tank to overflow. Typically folks run a second pipe as an emergency route for the water to flow if the primary pipe gets blocked. And it's very common these days to run 3 pipes for a bean-animal style, overflow that minimizes noise.

 

[Turtlesteve]

The inverted "U" going into the sump is a bad idea. This could (probably will) trap air and stop the drain from working. There are two options to fix it.

1. Plumb the drain going upwards into the bottom of the sump, or horizontally into a side wall of the sump.
2. Put a tee at the top of the inverted "U" to make a vertical vent line, above the display water level. This line is open on top and will allow any air to escape.

 

[Peace River]

As already mentioned, there will need to be a way to clear the trapped air (either an air escape or even a small overflow style pump to make sure that you don't lose the siphon). Additionally, the horizontal run will slow down the drainage speed and will also likely act as a settling space. Although this may be functional, it isn't optimal. I like the creativity, but I would encourage you to continue to consider options. Good luck!

 

[Rjukan]

I'm going with a flat out no, you don't want to try and plumb it the way you have it drawn.

In order for the water to move along that horizontal run, and back up into the sump you would need something like 2x the distance of it on the drop section (I'm guessing) in order to have the weight (force) to move the water fast enough for your application. Making the pipe along the horizontal run a larger diameter would actually make things worse. The vertical drop would then need to push a higher volume of water, which would require more force.

Here is a link for someone else who is doing something similar if you want to wait and see how it turns out for him.

Edit:
Oh and welcome to R2R!! It's great you joined the forum! Don't let my post discourage you, you will find a way to set up your system. Someone here with first hand knowledge should be able to offer a solution to the problem.

 

[BornHandy]

I am feeling like this is a flood in the making. The first issue I see is the distance of the drain, and little or no fall. That pipe is going to fill in from the bottom with gunk, vermetid snails, bits of sand, bristle worms, on and on and on.

It may work out just fine, but my instinct tells me that it would work for long enough to make you feel good about it, then one night, you'll be awakened by the sound of an overflowing tank!

 

[Joe Rice]

Some additional thoughts after reading others' comments.

If it were me, for the 15m pipe, I would go with a 3" or 4" diameter sloping downwards toward the sump end with a plumbing cleanout at that end. I would think it unlikely that a pipe of that diameter would ever clog but it's still a risk so the cleanout would give you access to check every few years.

A trapped air pocket in the inverted U does seem like it could be a problem. I don't think it could ever stop the flow entirely but it could slow it down significantly and it could cause a lot of gurgling. As @Turtlesteve say, a vent pipe that extends above the top of the display water level would completely solve this problem. It's possible that it could also be solved by choosing narrow enough pipe for that section (relative to the vertical pipe coming from the display) so that the velocity through that section would push the air pocket out but I don't know how one would figure out the appropriate diameters.

 

[elarbee]

I have a long lead time. So, based on the feedback, I think it's probably worth me mocking up a test before committing to laying any pipework. Either that, or I'll wait to see how Dragonetti's build goes in the linked thread, since that looks pretty much exactly the scenario I'm looking at.

Thanks for the advice all.

 

[Bayareareefer18]

Check out daily reefing on YouTube. His equipment room is across his backyard from the display. His setup is similar to what you have in mind. His pumps run underground and up into the sump and plenty of gravity for it to work well. He does have to use an abyzz to pump the distance on the return side though

 

[elarbee]

Check out daily reefing on YouTube. His equipment room is across his backyard from the display. His setup is similar to what you have in mind. His pumps run underground and up into the sump and plenty of gravity for it to work well. He does have to use an abyzz to pump the distance on the return side though

Awesome. This is exactly the experiment I was going to do:

 

[AlexG]

I run a U trap for my 3" drain line to my sumps to accommodate a walking platform and it works great. When you rise out of the bottom of the U trap extend the line above the water line of the tanks with a tee and add a threaded clean out which can allow for air to escape and it will also allow for maintenance access. I also keep a threaded clean out on the high side of the u trap for ventilation/maintenance access and at the bottom of the U trap I have a ball valve which will allow you to drain the trap for maintenance. Not the best picture but on the left side you can see the lower side of the U trap that drains into the sump and feeds my skimmer. Let me know if you want to see more pictures.

 

[Erica-Renee]

this will work ,, But.
from where it goes under the display tank to where it comes up to meet with the sump. that section should have about 1/4 fall per foot.. NOT More and not less . More will create a air trap near the display tank Less will cause debris to settle in the pipe.. Also at the end of the long run Install a settling sump.. Basically a tank or large diameter drain pipe caped at the bottom. Debris or , crabs snails fish will end up there if they get into the drain pipe. Look at a Swimming pool pump or street drain assembly.

Best solution is to lower your whole sump below grade and eliminate all the issues described above by others .If you have to jack hammer your floor another 3x2 foot area is not that big of a deal....

Good Luck

 

[Engloid]

yes, air in that upward U will be an issue. It will slowly restrict flow until you have your tank overflow. They make U pipes for overflows that hang over the back of a tank. They have a port on them so you can hook an aqualifter and keep the air sucked out of it. It sounds like a great idea, but an aqualifter is really garbage. It's made like your standard aquarium air pumps, so it jams up with stuff all the time. If you do anything like this, put a tee in the top, and put something like an Maxijet pump in it, so that it pumps into the tank your water is going towards. I can't say I like the idea overall, but it should work.

 

[Erica-Renee]

yes, air in that upward U will be an issue. It will slowly restrict flow until you have your tank overflow. They make U pipes for overflows that hang over the back of a tank. They have a port on them so you can hook an aqualifter and keep the air sucked out of it. It sounds like a great idea, but an aqualifter is really garbage. It's made like your standard aquarium air pumps, so it jams up with stuff all the time. If you do anything like this, put a tee in the top, and put something like an Maxijet pump in it, so that it pumps into the tank your water is going towards. I can't say I like the idea overall, but it should work.

This does not really apply in this situation. That U in that pipe is a Drain not a Siphon . With a over the top tank over flow the u pipe is a siphon and air can build up and break that.. In this situation that does not apply.. Nor does the whole slower drain because of the almost horizontal run . The only real issue is the pipe will collect debris at its lowest spot because there is NO Pressure flowing thru the pipe to push the heavier debris up . This is why i suggest a Deep Clean out at the lowest point in the drain line or sink the sump tank into the floor ..


I am not a Licensed plumber but have been doing plumbing for 30 plus years and working with Master plumbers ..