Praziquantel Treatment

Carl Cardarelli

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I am finishing my second dose of Praziquantel is it necessary to do a 30% water change or should I let it dissipate on its own. Thanks for any advice
 

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If it were me I would say do at least 10% water change and run carbon for quick removal. It is not completely necessary as bacteria and light degrade the medicine over a fairly long time. If you plan to dose again though I would do the bigger water change because you don't know for sure how much is left in system.
 
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Carl Cardarelli

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If it were me I would say do at least 10% water change and run carbon for quick removal. It is not completely necessary as bacteria and light degrade the medicine over a fairly long time. If you plan to dose again though I would do the bigger water change because you don't know for sure how much is left in system.
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Jay Hemdal

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I am finishing my second dose of Praziquantel is it necessary to do a 30% water change or should I let it dissipate on its own. Thanks for any advice
You can just let it dissipate (actually, it gets decomposed by bacteria). Water changes never hurt of course but they aren't necessary with normal dose prazi

Jay
 

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You can just let it dissipate (actually, it gets decomposed by bacteria). Water changes never hurt of course but they aren't necessary with normal dose prazi

Jay

Jay, are you guys able to test prazi levels? I thought I remember reading after 24 hours, it was basically gone?
 

Jay Hemdal

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Jay, are you guys able to test prazi levels? I thought I remember reading after 24 hours, it was basically gone?
No - I can test chloroquine with a UV spec, but not prazi. Disney did a study that showed with subsequent treatments, praziquantel levels were reduced faster and faster. They then determined it was being consumed by bacteria. I had observed years before this, that prazi treatments used on the same tank, time after time, simply stopped working. I had erroneously thought the flukes were developing a resistance to prazi, when actually the bacteria population had grown enough to consume the prazi before it had time to work.

Jay
 

DrZoidburg

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It can take well over 30 days to be biodegraded. More likely that it is reacted with light and or oxidized to an easier form to be degraded. One would typically do a water change before it is completely gone anyway. It would be best to do at least a little water change though because these meds can stress fish out, possibly cause health problems over long periods, react with other things in the water, and or cause resistance like you mentioned. What type of fish did you treat?
 
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Carl Cardarelli

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No - I can test chloroquine with a UV spec, but not prazi. Disney did a study that showed with subsequent treatments, praziquantel levels were reduced faster and faster. They then determined it was being consumed by bacteria. I had observed years before this, that prazi treatments used on the same tank, time after time, simply stopped working. I had erroneously thought the flukes were developing a resistance to prazi, when actually the bacteria population had grown enough to consume the prazi before it had time to work.

Jay
Since you are familiar with CP can you inform me how much of a dosage for a 620 gallon tank and what is the dosage recommendations such as how many days etc. I really appreciate it Thanks for your time I bought a lot of CP but never used it since no one really knows the amount and length of dosage Fish Only I have. Thanks again
 

Jay Hemdal

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It can take well over 30 days to be biodegraded. More likely that it is reacted with light and or oxidized to an easier form to be degraded. One would typically do a water change before it is completely gone anyway. It would be best to do at least a little water change though because these meds can stress fish out, possibly cause health problems over long periods, react with other things in the water, and or cause resistance like you mentioned. What type of fish did you treat?

Praziquantel is broken down by bacteria much faster than 30 days after multiple treatment.. 8 days for the first treatment and 2 days for the next. The bacteria population grows: rapidly in response to the presence of prazi to work on. Here is the reference:

We found that after 4 treatments, the bacteria population was so great that the praziquantel was removed before it had any real benefit in removing flukes from flashlight fish.

Jay
 

Jay Hemdal

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Since you are familiar with CP can you inform me how much of a dosage for a 620 gallon tank and what is the dosage recommendations such as how many days etc. I really appreciate it Thanks for your time I bought a lot of CP but never used it since no one really knows the amount and length of dosage Fish Only I have. Thanks again
I haven't used chloroquine for four or five years. I ran into some toxicity issues with lionfish and wrasses at 15 mg/l, and going down to 12 mg/l wasn't giving me good disease control.

To calculate the amount of a product to use, here is the formula: exact gallons to be treated multiplied by the target concentration, divided by 266 give you grams of medication to use. So - lets say the 620 gallon tank actually holds 575 gallons and you want to treat chloroquine at 15 mg/l Therefore: 575 * 15 / 266 = 32 grams

Jay
 

DrZoidburg

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I would still do a little water change, their tests only used 2ppm vs others using 5x more in a non controlled experiment to treat home fish. Also never mentions the degradation biproducts which in itself could have impacts. That is where I would err on the side of caution. The study I read didn't mention salt water bacteria only environmental exposures.
 

Jay Hemdal

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I would still do a little water change, their tests only used 2ppm vs others using 5x more in a non controlled experiment to treat home fish. Also never mentions the degradation biproducts which in itself could have impacts. That is where I would err on the side of caution. The study I read didn't mention salt water bacteria only environmental exposures.
I know some more of the background on this study, it is heterotrophic bacteria that causes the degradation. There aren’t any byproducts except normal metabolic waste.
Jay
 

DrZoidburg

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I disagree "The accumulated anthelmintic compound was partly metabolized, and twenty–one compounds were identified." This was in the case of run off from farms analyzed in plant cell walls.
 

Jay Hemdal

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I disagree "The accumulated anthelmintic compound was partly metabolized, and twenty–one compounds were identified." This was in the case of run off from farms analyzed in plant cell walls.
Sorry, you've confused me. I had to run a Google search - that is from a paper discussing Phragmites wetlands removing Praziquantel. The "21 compounds" weren't identified, and there is no way to know if some/all weren't part of a degradation pathway that is common with bacteria (protein to ammonia to nitrite to nitrate as an example). There is a huge difference between metabolites and TOXIC metabolites. Beware of over-extrapolation from non-related studies.

As it is, I have a problem with Dr. Stamper's study in that they ran the biofilters in with Fritzyme #9. IMO, this produces a very depopulate microbiome, which then takes time to fully develop. I suspect that if they had used mature tanks, they would have found the degradation to be even quicker.


Jay
 
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Carl Cardarelli

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I haven't used chloroquine for four or five years. I ran into some toxicity issues with lionfish and wrasses at 15 mg/l, and going down to 12 mg/l wasn't giving me good disease control.

To calculate the amount of a product to use, here is the formula: exact gallons to be treated multiplied by the target concentration, divided by 266 give you grams of medication to use. So - lets say the 620 gallon tank actually holds 575 gallons and you want to treat chloroquine at 15 mg/l Therefore: 575 * 15 / 266 = 32 grams

Jay
How long would you leave it in tank (CP) one dosage or several?
 

Jay Hemdal

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How long would you leave it in tank (CP) one dosage or several?
I wouldn't re-dose chloroquine more often than once every 30 days unless you can measure the amount remaining (and that requires a UV spectrophotometer). The only time you should re-dose sooner is if you change some of the water, and then, you should re-dose 100% based on the amount of water that your changed. Don't use a UV sterilizer or carbon when running CP.

Jay
 
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Carl Cardarelli

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I wouldn't re-dose chloroquine more often than once every 30 days unless you can measure the amount remaining (and that requires a UV spectrophotometer). The only time you should re-dose sooner is if you change some of the water, and then, you should re-dose 100% based on the amount of water that your changed. Don't use a UV sterilizer or carbon when running CP.

Jay
Thanks
 

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Praziquantel is broken down by bacteria much faster than 30 days after multiple treatment.. 8 days for the first treatment and 2 days for the next. The bacteria population grows: rapidly in response to the presence of prazi to work on. Here is the reference:

We found that after 4 treatments, the bacteria population was so great that the praziquantel was removed before it had any real benefit in removing flukes from flashlight fish.

Jay

Why do you treat with 3 consecutive Prazi treatments in your QT protocol? I would think the 3rd treatment is pretty darn near useless also...
 

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