Prorocentrum and Ostreopsis

[larrysaltisfun]

I started a post over under the reef chemistry, thinking I had Diatoms I have prorocentrum and a little ostreopisis and hair algae . Algae drove my phosphate down to zero. It’s been recommended I add micro bact7 to the tank and doing a five day blackout don’t disturb the rocks and slow down the flow through my UV sterilizer which is a 57 W on a 210 gallon tank. Any other thoughts or recommendations?

 

[larrysaltisfun]

Bump

 

[EnterName]

I always recommend the following approach:

First you start by bringing nutrients down (yes down). Everything, including dinoflagellates requires nutrients to grow. If there is a lot of growth, there have to be lots of nutrients, they are just taken up fast so you can't detect them. Reducing nutrients includes manual removal of the nuisance, water changes, cleaning the substrate, if possible rinsing a few rocks in old tank water after a water change, etc.

If this doesn't fix the issue I recommend adding the required nutrients with stock solutions instead of overfeeding. This avoids introducing organics that can cause trouble by themselves or might already be part of the issue. Down below you can find the required recipes.

If this still doesn't work you can try more experimental approaches like silicate dosing (https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/silicate-dosing-for-reef-tanks.1129689/), or hydrogen peroxide dosing.

There are also general ideas that might help like your UV sterilizer or improving water flow making sure there are no dead spots or spots where the current is so strong no coral would survive.

Nutrient DIY recipes:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-ammonia-dosing-for-low-nitrate-systems.987087/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-phosphate-dosing-recipe.1109919/

 

[larrysaltisfun]

Isn’t there a thought that doing water changes and blowing off the rocks will increase the spread? Depending on where I look like a different recommendations this is exceedingly frustrating

 

[slingfox]

My #1 recommendation is manual removal. Then dose nitrates and/or phosphates to make them detectable, UV which you already have, and dose silicates. I have found Microbe Life Special Blend much more effective at combatting Dino’s than MicroBact7. I literally dose $100+ of Microbacter7 and it did nothing.

 

[slingfox]

Isn’t there a thought that doing water changes and blowing off the rocks will increase the spread? Depending on where I look like a different recommendations this is exceedingly frustrating

You want to manually export as much Dino’s every day as possible. Then dose in hopes that every day less and less Dino’s come back as it is out competed. Gene I have small amounts of Dino’s to cyano, etc. I just scrape it off the rocks into the water column and it is filtered out my my rollermat. In the instances when I had a huge Dino outbreak, I turned off my return pump and used a Marine Magnum Polishing Filter to clean the water column as I was scrubbing Dino’s for the rocks. I also used sheets of filter floss hung on the glass to passively collect Dino’s. Those sheets were rinsed once a day. Eventually the Dino’s go away after consistent manual removal, UV and dosing.

 

[larrysaltisfun]

Thanks that is practical and doable. Do you ever do black outs?

 

[larrysaltisfun]

@slingfox

What do you dose?

 

[slingfox]

@slingfox

What do you dose?

My issues is low nitrates so I dose ammonia (many threads on this board on how to do that).

When dealing with Dino’s I also dose silicates (I use the Loudwolf water glass sold on Amazon) and MicrobeLift Special Blend. I also dose DIY coral snow once a week. For bottled bacteria it seems like Tropical Marine Nitrobiotic is becoming popular so may be worth trying as an alternative to MicrobeLift. I also hear good things about Aquaforest Life Source. I have been using that for two weeks, not to battle Dino’s but as part of weekly maintenance (I use much less than what the directions state).

 

[EnterName]

Isn’t there a thought that doing water changes and blowing off the rocks will increase the spread? Depending on where I look like a different recommendations this is exceedingly frustrating

If the growth is only limited by trace elements (which surely can happen) it's possible that water changes gives them a temporary boost until nutrients become the limiting factor.

You will find contradicting information because there are contradicting experiences and the overall treatment methods are highly experimental and debated. That's why I recommend "both ways" with nutrients. First try to get rid of them (especially organics). Then add nitrogen and phosphorus if you don't have success with that approach.

In my tank I was reliably able to encourage dino growth by stopping nutrient dosage. After dosing they vanished just as reliably. I tested this multiple times over 2 years in the same tank. However, there are people that make different experiences or people that have dinoflagellates and still decent nutrient levels. It would be naive to assume this treatment worked for everyone, so trying both for a while is arguably the better way.

 

[larrysaltisfun]

Just slowed my UV sterilizer down to help increase dwell time did a 33% water change took every rock out and scrubbed it. I don’t see but trace hair algae now. I don’t see any dinos but I’m sure they’re coming back. I really think my mess started when I treated with chemical clean to kill off cyanobacteria

 

[slingfox]

Just slowed my UV sterilizer down to help increase dwell time did a 33% water change took every rock out and scrubbed it. I don’t see but trace hair algae now. I don’t see any dinos but I’m sure they’re coming back. I really think my mess started when I treated with chemical clean to kill off cyanobacteria

The painful part is eventually the Dino’s and hair algae will go away and they cyano will return Then you get rid of the cyano and then the hair algae comes back followed by the Dino’s!

 

[larrysaltisfun]

Just slowed my UV sterilizer down to help increase dwell time did a 33% water change took every rock out and scrubbed it. I don’t see but trace hair algae now. I don’t see any dinos but I’m sure they’re coming back. I really think my mess started when I treated with chemical clean to kill off cyanobacteria

The painful part is eventually the Dino’s and hair algae will go away and they cyano will return Then you get rid of the cyano and then the hair algae comes back followed by the Dino’s!

That’s partially why I’m hesitant to add silicates because then I’ll get diatoms back then I’ll treat those and something else is going to rear. It’s ugly head.

 

[slingfox]

That’s partially why I’m hesitant to add silicates because then I’ll get diatoms back then I’ll treat those and something else is going to rear. It’s ugly head.

Diatoms is the best of all the uglies! Dino’s are the most painful but all of them are annoying in their own unique way!

 

[larrysaltisfun]

Agreed 🫪

 

[larrysaltisfun]

@slingfox
@EnterName

Good evening I posted a while back about Dino’s. I had made the mistake of taking out every rock and scrubbing …..and everything looked good for 10 days then prorocentrum came back like metastatic cancer.

So here’s where I am and my next steps and kind of want some guidance from anyone who has successfully battled these things

Will be completing a three day blackout tomorrow I mean the tank was wrapped in aluminum foil, including the top and the room was blacked out too

Running enough Rox carbon for the equivalent of a 600 gallon system (mine is 240

I have a 10 µm 32 inch filter stock coming. I was planning on running tank water through that and then returning the same water back to the tank to the tune of about 50 gallons a day.

I was also going to line my rectangular filter socks with the linings from a cut up 10 µm filter (the rectangular ones do not come with that small porosity)

I have bought microbe lift. I’m planning on adding that back. I have been adding microbacter daily

I have been running a 57 W UV sterilizer nonstop. I have it on 30% feed from a SICCE sdc7 which is rated at 1900 gallons per hour when it’s at 100%. I’m estimating 300 gallons an hour are going through the UV sterilizer. I know it’s just an estimate, but I know that it’s not 1900 gph at full throttle because it’s an older pump and the head height is approximately 5 feet

Questions for those of you that are expert/successful Dino killers

Should I continue to not do water changes? Are there any cons to not doing it?

Should I turkey baste /toothbrush off the Dino‘s every night before lights out and /or before running the water through the 10 µm filter sock

I’ve heard both arguments to do this (to get them into the water column and get them removed/UV sterilized ) but I’ve also been told that this will let them re-implant on new areas and increase the spread

I guess the next step if all this fails will be to add back silicates I really would like to know if this is considered to be an effective measure

and then, although I’ve only been at this battle for a month, I might plan to nuke the tank before the Dino’s nuke it.. will be tight, but I could temporarily rehome my livestock and coral and use 50 gallon quarantine tank as I bake the rocks and dry out the sand bed. I realize that is extreme, but it is disgusting to look at this tank. Probably 2/3 of the rocks are covered and 2/3 of the sand bed and it’s starting to cling to the back of the tank.

Believe me if there is hope if I am diligence about battling these things then this would not be a likely path to take, but it sure is tempting.

Phosphates have been dropping, but lowest ever been is .07 I have since turned off phosphate reactor and nitrates are 17 i’m sure it will be a food fest tomorrow after I lift the blackout and both these numbers should come up a bit

Thanks to anyone with feedback/encouragement lol

 

[EnterName]

I have bought microbe lift. I’m planning on adding that back. I have been adding microbacter daily

In my experience, Microbe Lift Special Blend is a phosphate bomb. You can try it if someone recommended it to you, but personally I think bottled bacteria are more likely to feed dinoflagellates, given the bound organics and nutrients they provide. Some people, however, swear it was the only way they got rid of dinoflagellates, so give it a try and see how the tank reacts. I could imagine that those people who had success with this approach would have had similar success by simply dosing ammonia and phosphate instead, but that's hard to prove and might not apply to your situation as dinoflagellates are not always caused by too low nutrient levels.

Should I continue to not do water changes? Are there any cons to not doing it?

People often say water changes cause more dinoflagellates, and it kind of makes sense that introducing trace elements, which are more likely the limiting factor for growth than nutrients, would help dinoflagellates spread. However, I assume dinoflagellates aren't really simply "killed off" (they are always present in a tank). They just don't spread because something else is winning the battle over surface area, light, and nutrients. This matches our experience trying to outcompete dinoflagellates with diatoms by dosing silicates. In other words: if you want something else to grow instead of dinoflagellates, you need appropriate water parameters, which include trace elements. In summary: I don't think water changes are harmful and they can even be beneficial.

Should I turkey baste /toothbrush off the Dino‘s every night before lights out and /or before running the water through the 10 µm filter sock
I’ve heard both arguments to do this (to get them into the water column and get them removed/UV sterilized ) but I’ve also been told that this will let them re-implant on new areas and increase the spread

You can try to get them into the water column. I don't think it will hurt. They're everywhere already, you can't really "spread" them further, they can move on their own if they want to. If there's a spot they haven't claimed yet, there's probably a reason why they aren't settling there.

I guess the next step if all this fails will be to add back silicates I really would like to know if this is considered to be an effective measure

Dosing silicate has worked for some, but not for others. Since some dinoflagellates can prey on diatoms, I personally think you really need to encourage a lot of diatom growth for it to work. I've frequently seen dinoflagellates thriving among a lot of diatoms, so it's worth a try, but you have to do it right, and it's not a guaranteed success.

and then, although I’ve only been at this battle for a month, I might plan to nuke the tank before the Dino’s nuke it.. will be tight, but I could temporarily rehome my livestock and coral and use 50 gallon quarantine tank as I bake the rocks and dry out the sand bed. I realize that is extreme, but it is disgusting to look at this tank. Probably 2/3 of the rocks are covered and 2/3 of the sand bed and it’s starting to cling to the back of the tank.
Believe me if there is hope if I am diligence about battling these things then this would not be a likely path to take, but it sure is tempting.

Before you nuke your entire tank, you might want to try Fauna Marin Dino M or similar options. Drying out dinos sounds like a good idea, but they can form resting cysts and enter a dormant state in which they might be able to survive being dried out for quite some time. You can see such a resting state on page 1, post #3 in my microscopy thread (the first video) in my post about some Amphidinium spp.

 

[larrysaltisfun]

Thanks for your time. Looks like there’s yes and no to every question. I have …..what a pain in the butt I would rather deal with ICH AND FLUKES

 

[slingfox]

@slingfox
@EnterName

Good evening I posted a while back about Dino’s. I had made the mistake of taking out every rock and scrubbing …..and everything looked good for 10 days then prorocentrum came back like metastatic cancer.

So here’s where I am and my next steps and kind of want some guidance from anyone who has successfully battled these things

Will be completing a three day blackout tomorrow I mean the tank was wrapped in aluminum foil, including the top and the room was blacked out too

Running enough Rox carbon for the equivalent of a 600 gallon system (mine is 240

I have a 10 µm 32 inch filter stock coming. I was planning on running tank water through that and then returning the same water back to the tank to the tune of about 50 gallons a day.

I was also going to line my rectangular filter socks with the linings from a cut up 10 µm filter (the rectangular ones do not come with that small porosity)

I have bought microbe lift. I’m planning on adding that back. I have been adding microbacter daily

I have been running a 57 W UV sterilizer nonstop. I have it on 30% feed from a SICCE sdc7 which is rated at 1900 gallons per hour when it’s at 100%. I’m estimating 300 gallons an hour are going through the UV sterilizer. I know it’s just an estimate, but I know that it’s not 1900 gph at full throttle because it’s an older pump and the head height is approximately 5 feet

Questions for those of you that are expert/successful Dino killers

Should I continue to not do water changes? Are there any cons to not doing it?

Should I turkey baste /toothbrush off the Dino‘s every night before lights out and /or before running the water through the 10 µm filter sock

I’ve heard both arguments to do this (to get them into the water column and get them removed/UV sterilized ) but I’ve also been told that this will let them re-implant on new areas and increase the spread

I guess the next step if all this fails will be to add back silicates I really would like to know if this is considered to be an effective measure

and then, although I’ve only been at this battle for a month, I might plan to nuke the tank before the Dino’s nuke it.. will be tight, but I could temporarily rehome my livestock and coral and use 50 gallon quarantine tank as I bake the rocks and dry out the sand bed. I realize that is extreme, but it is disgusting to look at this tank. Probably 2/3 of the rocks are covered and 2/3 of the sand bed and it’s starting to cling to the back of the tank.

Believe me if there is hope if I am diligence about battling these things then this would not be a likely path to take, but it sure is tempting.

Phosphates have been dropping, but lowest ever been is .07 I have since turned off phosphate reactor and nitrates are 17 i’m sure it will be a food fest tomorrow after I lift the blackout and both these numbers should come up a bit

Thanks to anyone with feedback/encouragement lol

I personally don’t believe in blackouts to battle Dino’s or at least I have never used a blackout to battle Dino’s. Every single time I faced Dino’s (one major long extra painful outbreak when my tank was 5 months old, and two smaller bouts when I did a complete tank reset), I fixed it by a combo of dosing silicates, bottled bacteria (Microbe Lift Special Blend but it seems like folks experimenting now swear by Tropic Marine’s bacteria product), UV, and manual export (many methods). For manual expert I would indeed scrub out the Dino’s from rock every day and sand every few days (I would siphon out the layers, rinse and add it back in). Also make sure phosphate and nitrates are in range and dose as needed.

One thing that helped me when I had 100% of my rocks covered in Dino’s was I bought aquarium floss and cut big sheets and hung them in the display along the glass . That would collect massive amounts of Dino’s so I would rinse 1-2 times a day. That helps export the Dino’s.

 

[larrysaltisfun]

Tell me about your reset if you don’t mind, did you just bake your rocks? Save your sand ? keep fish in quarantine until it was ready to go ? scrub the tank with bleach ?seriously because I may be headed. That way. This stuff is nasty.