Prorocentrum, be gone!

[Chalchi]

Hello all,

my tank has been taken over by Prorocentrum, and a sip of Ostreopsis joined them like one or two weeks ago.
One week ago it had also been green hair algae for weeks, which is disappearing right now.

The cause were staggering nutrient levels (phosphate 0,9 and nitrate 56, yes you are reading correctly, there is no typo) and super low salinity, hence a lack of trace elements. Please don't ask how this happened, it was a series of unfortunate events like two different salinity checkers showing the exact same wrong result for some reason, so I didn't notice something was off here.

I got phosphate down to 0,06, but it seems to rise again, and nitrate is still mess at 25. Salinity is raised to ideal level.
Green hair algae is disappearing, the dinos are loving it. I'm sending in another ICP test today.

In the German community they somehow are convinced dino outbreaks are caused by expelled zooxanthellae and nothing will change their minds, so I'm seeking refuge from this madness.
They also recommended turning down the blue light, while I read on this forum you should turn the blue light up. I found no scientific papers confirming either method.
I can't afford UV at the moment.
I tried Dino X yesterday but the corals looked terrible after adding it.

Sooo I think my next move is water glass, but I'm not sure which product to use, which concentration, and how to do it in general. Can someone help me with that please?

Oh, and I ordered a book on benthic dinoflagellates from a German researcher which is supposed to arrive today. I hope it's not just taxonomy, the description wasn't clear about that.

Thanks so much for reading,
Hanna

 

[taricha]

The cause were staggering nutrient levels (phosphate 0,9 and nitrate 56, yes you are reading correctly, there is no typo) and super low salinity, hence a lack of trace elements.

While the "cause" of dinos is really hard to define and replicate, there's nothing wrong with bringing nutrients down to sane (but still detectable) levels.

In the German community they somehow are convinced dino outbreaks are caused by expelled zooxanthellae and nothing will change their minds

Yeah, that's a bit nutty. The closest thing there is to any crossover between symbiotic and harmful dinos is that some photosynthetic flatworms can possess a type of amphidinium, but not the kinds that cause problems free-living in our tanks.

They also recommended turning down the blue light, while I read on this forum you should turn the blue light up. I found no scientific papers confirming either method.

You won't find scientific papers regarding most any of the things we do for handling dinos in the hobby. Sorry!

I can't afford UV at the moment.

See this....

Poor Man's UV
I wanted to (re)post this, as recently I've seen a couple of people with massive populations of dinos who are not apparently doing any real export. And this idea seems to have been lost in the depths of a few thousand posts. I originally stole it from user nvladik.
Hang some filter floss directly in front of one or two of your powerheads. Let it blow in the flow like a flag. Ostreopsis will attach to floss more than anything else in the tank. Turns out they don't care what they attach to - just looking for a good spot with tons of flow and some light, and they actually prefer rough surfaces to slime coats etc. Rinse the filter floss out daily (or a couple times a day) in tap water until it's white again. Use gloves - the toxins in question are serious business.

(above pic shows the accumulated ostreopsis from a single lights-on cycle in a tank with barely visible dinos, then wrung out into a beaker showing what's collected is 90%+ pure ostis)

This is for those with cells that go into the water - Ostreopsis especially - but it may work with others prorocentrum, coolia, etc I didn't try when I had those. This trick will allow you to easily concentrate and export almost exclusively dinos. It's also appropriate while UV is getting set up - may suffice in some cases as "poor man's uv" , or in addition to UV.

This will export a large majority of the ostreopsis daily. It is not a cure, but it is control for you, relief for your coral and other tank inhabitants, allows you to do whatever your corals need (water changes, Ca, Alk, etc), removes urgency and anxiety, and gives you flexibility for your next move. This is how I had ostreopsis for a couple of months without losing any livestock or it being able to form stringy masses in my tank. Ostis stayed almost invisible while I had filter floss. (I actually never ran UV on my main tank.)

Additional benefits:

• physical removal of the majority of dinos is an important step in advancing any other treatment plan.
• prevents stringy masses from forming on corals.
• turns brown to show you if it's working.
• can be easily wrung out into a beaker to sample what you have.
• may possibly work as a diagnostic test for whether your strain is UV targetable / is going into the water. I don't know how well types other than ostis will attach, but the stringier it is, the likelier they will attach.
• is a really easy tune-up if a small smattering of dinos re-appears.
• is very selective: removes pretty much exclusively dinos

Sooo I think my next move is water glass, but I'm not sure which product to use, which concentration, and how to do it in general. Can someone help me with that please?

1ppm Silicate is a nice round target number of convenience. It doesn't much matter the exact amount or which Si product.

Oh, and I ordered a book on benthic dinoflagellates from a German researcher which is supposed to arrive today. I hope it's not just taxonomy, the description wasn't clear about that.

you ordered "Marine benthic dinoflagellates - unveiling their worldwide biodiversity" ?
I'm jealous. The book won't tell you anything about treatment. But awesome anyway!

 

[ryshark]

Hello all,

my tank has been taken over by Prorocentrum, and a sip of Ostreopsis joined them like one or two weeks ago.
One week ago it had also been green hair algae for weeks, which is disappearing right now.

The cause were staggering nutrient levels (phosphate 0,9 and nitrate 56, yes you are reading correctly, there is no typo) and super low salinity, hence a lack of trace elements. Please don't ask how this happened, it was a series of unfortunate events like two different salinity checkers showing the exact same wrong result for some reason, so I didn't notice something was off here.

I got phosphate down to 0,06, but it seems to rise again, and nitrate is still mess at 25. Salinity is raised to ideal level.
Green hair algae is disappearing, the dinos are loving it. I'm sending in another ICP test today.

In the German community they somehow are convinced dino outbreaks are caused by expelled zooxanthellae and nothing will change their minds, so I'm seeking refuge from this madness.
They also recommended turning down the blue light, while I read on this forum you should turn the blue light up. I found no scientific papers confirming either method.
I can't afford UV at the moment.
I tried Dino X yesterday but the corals looked terrible after adding it.

Sooo I think my next move is water glass, but I'm not sure which product to use, which concentration, and how to do it in general. Can someone help me with that please?

Oh, and I ordered a book on benthic dinoflagellates from a German researcher which is supposed to arrive today. I hope it's not just taxonomy, the description wasn't clear about that.

Thanks so much for reading,
Hanna

I have been meaning to write this up, so I did after seeing this thread. Hope this helps:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/prorocentrum-dinos-beat-in-less-than-2-weeks.927799/

 

[Chalchi]

Thanks for the summary ryshark! I'm more of a minimalist to be honest, because if you do too much you will completely change the biological system and afterwards nobody knows what exactly helped (or not).

While the "cause" of dinos is really hard to define and replicate, there's nothing wrong with bringing nutrients down to sane (but still detectable) levels.

Just saying, the whole thing was completely imbalanced and this is where trouble starts. I think a healthy tank will rarely get pests. What it needs is stability, biodiversity, etc. My theory is that the messed up nutrients and salinity and trace elements made beneficial species die off and let the dinos prevail. This is why I mention it as cause. The green hair algae retreating is probably a result of getting the salinity right and the phosphate down. I'm not saying this is generally true, but it is what was detectably wrong with my aquarium and needs to be fixed.

Yeah, that's a bit nutty. The closest thing there is to any crossover between symbiotic and harmful dinos is that some photosynthetic flatworms can possess a type of amphidinium, but not the kinds that cause problems free-living in our tanks.

While correct identification of dinoflagellates is a difficult task, Symbiodinium are very well distinguishable from Prorocentrum, Ostreopsis etc. Starting with them being round.
Anyway. There is a German "biologist" who sells marine aquarium additives, and he says when coral are stressed they expell their zooxanthellae. While this is true (coral bleaching), I never saw Symbiodinium under my microscope. But Mr. "know it all" biologist who sells easy solutions said so.
And it's not like here on this message board where the community works together for everyone's benefit, no, they will fight you if you say something else. I asked where he got that information from, apparently it's his "experience" and "sadly it hasn't gotten through even into modern literature". But nobody seems to think: "oh, it might be that nobody else says so because it's nonsense".

You won't find scientific papers regarding most any of the things we do for handling dinos in the hobby. Sorry!

I didn't think so, heh! Just trying to understand what they are, how they live, and what causes their abundance. Since they're harmful species quite a lot of people want to know and are researching, and I'm just reading about their research, hoping to stumble over some helpful information.
So far it has not been very uplifting, as they are super adaptive. But I'll keep looking.

1ppm Silicate is a nice round target number of convenience. It doesn't much matter the exact amount or which Si product.

Trouble starts with units (I didn't even know how many gallons a liter is). Is ppm parts per million? And the water glass is the one with Natrium, right?

you ordered "Marine benthic dinoflagellates - unveiling their worldwide biodiversity" ?
I'm jealous. The book won't tell you anything about treatment. But awesome anyway!

Yes that's the one! Is it not purchasable where you live?
It was in the mail yesterday. It's indeed mostly taxonomy and a liiiiittle bit ecology, but I haven't had time to have a closer look yet.

 

[gbru316]

I tried Dino X yesterday but the corals looked terrible after adding it.

Did you follow instructions exactly as written? Ie, remove all GAC, dose your actual volume (taking into account rocks, sand and equipment) instead of rated tank volume?

I've added 6 doses of Dino X to my tank and I haven't seen any impact to anything but dinoflagellates. I dosed once I had the problem mostly under control, though. No stringy hairs or snot mats. No bubbles, just a slight dino "fuzz" on some rock and sand.

Perhaps a potential complication might be the magnitude of the dinoflagellate problem. We know some dinos are toxic. If dino X kills a bunch at one time, the toxins released in the tank may be detrimental to your livestock. Not really sure though, I'm just hypothesizing here.

 

[Chalchi]

Did you follow instructions exactly as written? Ie, remove all GAC, dose your actual volume (taking into account rocks, sand and equipment) instead of rated tank volume?

I've added 6 doses of Dino X to my tank and I haven't seen any impact to anything but dinoflagellates. I dosed once I had the problem mostly under control, though. No stringy hairs or snot mats. No bubbles, just a slight dino "fuzz" on some rock and sand.

Perhaps a potential complication might be the magnitude of the dinoflagellate problem. We know some dinos are toxic. If dino X kills a bunch at one time, the toxins released in the tank may be detrimental to your livestock. Not really sure though, I'm just hypothesizing here.

I added only half of the recommended amount and corals started retracting polyps immediately... so no idea what's the issue here, hearing about your positive results.

I put some of the sand under the microscope today and saw some copepods, and no ostreopsis. A good sign?
Prorocentrum look worse than ever though.

 

[Bucs20fan]

I can confirm that manual removal, keeping nitrates detectable and dosing silicates to 2ppm every day will win you the battle in time. Diatoms will rather quickly, for a reef that is, around 2 weeks, take over the dinos. Just give it time with silicates and MANUAL REMOVAL is key. It helps soooooo much.

 

[Chalchi]

I can't find silicates to buy where I live. Seems everyone just wants to get rid of it. Out of desperation I added another dose of Dino-X, this time the recommended amount. I also changed the light settings to blue light.
There's noticably less dinos today.

 

[Bucs20fan]

I had to get a product called Spongexcel, BRS and amazon both carry it, Im not sure if either ships to germany though. But the product is made by brightwell aquatics.

 

[Chalchi]

It might be shipped, but it will probably take so long until it arrives that the dinos will have died of boredom.

 

[taricha]

Trouble starts with units (I didn't even know how many gallons a liter is). Is ppm parts per million? And the water glass is the one with Natrium, right?

yes, ppm = parts per million. Water glass, sodium silicate, sodium metasilicate, seen all those names.
I've used spongexcel from brightwell, and florida aqua farms phytoplankton silicate solution.
Loudwolf sodium silicate/waterglass (amazon) is also used.

Yes that's the one! Is it not purchasable where you live?

oh, it's available. hundreds of $ is outside my book budget for just wanting to know stuff.