Prozipro Fish sensitivity

[Jay Hemdal]

I don’t have a microscope and it would be Monday before I could probably get my hands on anything like one. There are a few hermits and leather corals in the system that could easily be removed. Would you agree with treating with prozipro immediately as precaution for the other livestock?

Yes perhaps - in this case, treating with Prazipro (with good aeration!) only has a cost associated with it, not really a risk to the animals (except that it might not be the right treatment).

 

[LouisianaReef]

Yes perhaps - in this case, treating with Prazipro (with good aeration!) only has a cost associated with it, not really a risk to the animals (except that it might not be the right treatment).

What would you do in my situation. I understand that we aren’t sure what we are dealing with exactly but prozipro being a part of a normal QT seems safe enough to give a shot. If followed by GC that could potentially help with bacterial. Although really neither address ick if it was some type of ick infection, but with the copper sensitive fish but not sure how to cover my bases with that. I’m just trying to figure out my best course of action to avoid future fish loses.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What would you do in my situation. I understand that we aren’t sure what we are dealing with exactly but prozipro being a part of a normal QT seems safe enough to give a shot. If followed by GC that could potentially help with bacterial. Although really neither address ick if it was some type of ick infection, but with the copper sensitive fish but not sure how to cover my bases with that. I’m just trying to figure out my best course of action to avoid future fish loses.

I would treat as opposed to doing nothing, as that won’t end well I think.

Jay

 

[LouisianaReef]

I would treat as opposed to doing nothing, as that won’t end well I think.

Jay

Jay,

Just in case I’m dealing with a protozoan issue, what would be the safest route med wise since a gray bamboo, yellow ray and a moray is present in the system. I’m just trying to form some type of treatment plan to cover as many bases as possible without over doing it.

I gave the first dose of prozipro a few minutes ago

 

[LouisianaReef]

From my understanding sharks, rays and eels are not typically affected by protozoan infections. Would it be possible to keep them three in the system with the live rock for the new tank and move the other fish to a sterile environment to be treated with copper in case of protozoan? Like the shark, ray and eel are kept separate in the new DT for about 76 days and the other fish go though the standard 30 days of copper treatment and not added to the DT until after the 76 day period?

 

[lion king]

From my understanding sharks, rays and eels are not typically affected by protozoan infections. Would it be possible to keep them three in the system with the live rock for the new tank and move the other fish to a sterile environment to be treated with copper in case of protozoan? Like the shark, ray and eel are kept separate in the new DT for about 76 days and the other fish go though the standard 30 days of copper treatment and not added to the DT until after the 76 day period?

That is what I do when I have a protazoan in a tank, while I've never had shark or rays, I have moved eels from active protozoan outbreaks. I've also recommended this to others, also on this board and it's been successful. That move needs to immediate, the more exposure, the more the risk. Optimum water conditions and a fresh, healthy diet is a must.

 

[LouisianaReef]

@Jay Hemdal @lion king morning update isn’t good. Lost the blue line grouper, and bi color Foxface is now showing the cloudy eyes and similar body conditions as the lion before it passed. Almost all of the “regular fish” have been lost now. There’s still a sailfin and maroon clown in the system once the bicolor goes.

 

[LouisianaReef]

Bi-Color currently. Still alive but I’m sure not for long

 

[lion king]

My expertise is with the care of eels and lions, I am not as versed with disease in general. I would suspect a protazoan and I'm sure Jay would be able to give you a more definitive answer, that pic is very clear. My experience with eels is as I mentioned in earlier post. For my success the move occurred immediately after confirmation, so waiting will always add risk. In the mean time you must maintain perfect water conditions and a fresh diet. I'm not sure what you are feeding but fresh human grade seafood would be the best. Fatty fish for the eels. Supplementation with high doses of vitamin c, I'm not sure what your shark/ray supplements contain. Hypo may be an immediate answer.

 

[LouisianaReef]

My expertise is with the care of eels and lions, I am not as versed with disease in general. I would suspect a protazoan and I'm sure Jay would be able to give you a more definitive answer, that pic is very clear. My experience with eels is as I mentioned in earlier post. For my success the move occurred immediately after confirmation, so waiting will always add risk. In the mean time you must maintain perfect water conditions and a fresh diet. I'm not sure what you are feeding but fresh human grade seafood would be the best. Fatty fish for the eels. Supplementation with high doses of vitamin c, I'm not sure what your shark/ray supplements contain. Hypo may be an immediate answer.

Everything was always feed human grade seafood brought fresh and frozen. I provide as much variety as possible. The only thing they are feed that isn’t human grade is San Francisco Bay Silversides. I’m moving the eel, shark and Ray today to a 150 gallon stock tank and I’m going to run a 40w UV on it as well. I don’t think the ray can handle hypo conditions to use that treatment method. What’s your opinion on moving some of the rocks to the 150 with them?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal @lion king morning update isn’t good. Lost the blue line grouper, and bi color Foxface is now showing the cloudy eyes and similar body conditions as the lion before it passed. Almost all of the “regular fish” have been lost now. There’s still a sailfin and maroon clown in the system once the bicolor goes.

Sorry to hear. I know I sound like a broken record, but I'm concerned that this is a protozoan, not flukes. Without that darn scrape though, I don't have any clarity for you.

Sharks and rays cannot be treated with hypo or copper. Eels can be treated with hypo and coppersafe, but not ionic copper. Copper doesn't work for Brooklynella or Velvet.

I don't suppose you can get chloroquine?
Are any current fish showing symptoms that you could video?

Jay

 

[lion king]

Everything was always feed human grade seafood brought fresh and frozen. I provide as much variety as possible. The only thing they are feed that isn’t human grade is San Francisco Bay Silversides. I’m moving the eel, shark and Ray today to a 150 gallon stock tank and I’m going to run a 40w UV on it as well. I don’t think the ray can handle hypo conditions to use that treatment method. What’s your opinion on moving some of the rocks to the 150 with them?

It would be best not to move anything with them.

 

[LouisianaReef]

Sorry to hear. I know I sound like a broken record, but I'm concerned that this is a protozoan, not flukes. Without that darn scrape though, I don't have any clarity for you.

Sharks and rays cannot be treated with hypo or copper. Eels can be treated with hypo and coppersafe, but not ionic copper. Copper doesn't work for Brooklynella or Velvet.

I don't suppose you can get chloroquine?
Are any current fish showing symptoms that you could video?

Jay

I’m going to separate the shark, eel and ray and observe them for any signs and treat the remaining fish with copper.

All the fish that were showing symptoms have passed. I have access to whatever can be ordered online, just have to wait for it to come in

 

[LouisianaReef]

I’m going to separate the shark, eel and ray and observe them for any signs and treat the remaining fish with copper.

All the fish that were showing symptoms have passed. I have access to whatever can be ordered online, just have to wait for it to come in

@Jay Hemdal how long would you say that the shark, ray and eel would need to be observed without symptoms to consider them free of protozoan infection? I’m going to do a 76 day fallow period for the live rock to ensure nothing gets reintroduced to the system. Based on this photo of the bi color I’m leaving towards velvet. Rapid breathing was also observed in the bicolor

I managed to find one of those clip on phone microscopes at hobby lobby. When I get home I’ll upload of photos of the remaining alive sailfin tang and hopefully be able to get a confirmation of diagnosis.

 

[lion king]

@Jay Hemdal how long would you say that the shark, ray and eel would need to be observed without symptoms to consider them free of protozoan infection? I’m going to do a 76 day fallow period for the live rock to ensure nothing gets reintroduced to the system. Based on this photo of the bi color I’m leaving towards velvet.

I managed to find one of those clip on phone microscopes at hobby lobby. When I get home I’ll upload of photos of the remaining alive sailfin tang and hopefully be able to get a confirmation of diagnosis.

I would say what ever time frame you would usually use for an observational qt. Not a suggestion; but I have literally moved eels from protazoan infected tanks, ick and velvet, directly into tanks with other fish. I have never transferred ick or velvet into another tank. These where otherwise very healthy eels and the move was done within days of the first signs of disease. This is just an anecdotal example of how resilient eels are against protazoan.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal how long would you say that the shark, ray and eel would need to be observed without symptoms to consider them free of protozoan infection? I’m going to do a 76 day fallow period for the live rock to ensure nothing gets reintroduced to the system. Based on this photo of the bi color I’m leaving towards velvet. Rapid breathing was also observed in the bicolor

I managed to find one of those clip on phone microscopes at hobby lobby. When I get home I’ll upload of photos of the remaining alive sailfin tang and hopefully be able to get a confirmation of diagnosis.

That is not a well known / well studied scenario. Worst case would be 60 days for ich, 45 days for direct development protozoans like Brooklynella and 30 days for flukes. Trouble is, there are these persistent rumors that some protozoans can live on eels, not making them sick, but keeping them infective. I can’t say if that is true or not though.

Jay

 

[LouisianaReef]

Here are some skin samples from the bi color that is somehow still alive. Obviously I have no idea what I’m looking at or for. See anything @Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here are some skin samples from the bi color that is somehow still alive. Obviously I have no idea what I’m looking at or for. See anything @Jay Hemdal

That all just looks like mucus. Did you see anything moving? If not, and if the scrapes that you took included some of the spots, I would have to lean towards it being a bacterial issue, as those are too small to see under a microscope. Flukes look like moving/contracting worms, while protozoans looks like tumbling or gliding blobs of protoplasm.

Primary bacterial infections are really rare though.....so I'm kind of stumped here.

jay

 

[LouisianaReef]

@Jay Hemdal he was pretty much on his deathbed so the scrapes were almost the entire side of the fish. Didn’t see anything moving. I still have not idea.

As of this morning we have lost the last remaining sailfin tang so I guess this will always remain a mystery. The shark, ray and eel are in a sterile environment that wasn’t exposed to anything in the previous tank. They look healthy and happy, so hopefully they were not affected. All the equipment from that system will be soak in bleach water and cleaned before reusing and all the rock is stored away for the next 76 days to give us the best chance of not reinfecting the new monster tank when it arrives.

@Jay Hemdal and @lion king, thanks for y’all’s valuable input into this situation. We can win them all. Sometimes Mother Nature just has another plan. We will start over once the QT period is over and a follow proper copper/prozipro QT 100% of the time when the next setup.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal he was pretty much on his deathbed so the scrapes were almost the entire side of the fish. Didn’t see anything moving. I still have not idea.

As of this morning we have lost the last remaining sailfin tang so I guess this will always remain a mystery. The shark, ray and eel are in a sterile environment that wasn’t exposed to anything in the previous tank. They look healthy and happy, so hopefully they were not affected. All the equipment from that system will be soak in bleach water and cleaned before reusing and all the rock is stored away for the next 76 days to give us the best chance of not reinfecting the new monster tank when it arrives.

@Jay Hemdal and @lion king, thanks for y’all’s valuable input into this situation. We can win them all. Sometimes Mother Nature just has another plan. We will start over once the QT period is over and a follow proper copper/prozipro QT 100% of the time when the next setup.

Sorry I couldn’t solve this for you!

Jay