Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[brandon429]

Jay would this forum benefit in having a fully dedicated no qt forum to inspect claims or is it better to mix the debate here among the qt and fallow advice… what’s your take on the issue


if there was a forum where folks who want to practice and advise no fallow no qt options could run control attempts it really would put all the debating into action, we are never going to make headway when someone gives procedural advice based on their home system, there’s nothing concrete to debate and inspect like there is for pages here. I really feel that the accountability that comes with being required to manage public tanks will draw an effective contrast in these two running and highly opposing models.

for pages I can click here and get my own outcomes for fallow and qt based on others advice, your summary not required to inspect outcomes, and if I could get that same inspection ability for all natural methods it would be ideal. I currently just have to accept someone’s testimony or their own submitted pics for proof it worked well at home, I need third party verification

 

[Jeffcb]

I think most people agree that quarantine may keep parasites out of your system. But I do not believe that is helpful and actually believe it is very harmful in the long run which is why there are no fully quarantined systems that are very old with fish spawning and dying of only old age.

In those systems where fish are quarantined for extended times, fish lose immunity gradually the longer fish are not exposed to pathogens and if a fish never encounters a parasite, it will have no immunity. In such a tank, in the future parasites will eventually be introduced and the fish, having no immunity will have to differ to using meds and that will lead to lesser immunity and more meds.

Just my opinion of course.

Exactly.

But any way what is a poll going to prove. 90,000 members on R2R. How many will vote in this poll?

Maybe we should make it mandatory that all members Vote and put tis topic to rest.....

 

[Paul B]

The counter point to this though, is that IF you just accept the parasites and have fish that are susceptible to them under a stress event, then its just a matter of time before something happens like your heater breaks, and then there's an outbreak.

flourishofmediocrit, I get this a lot and get your point. But if it were not true, my and many other tanks would not exist as I add parasite infected fish all the time and my tank has experienced probably dozens of blackouts along with quite a few other very severe stress events over many years.​

Just last week I cut out way to much sponges causing my water to turn white. I lost all my SPS corals and almost my urchin. I even lost a couple of fish including a long nose butterfly. But not to disease.

I once had 24 New York urchins spawn at once causing the water to look like heavy cream. No fish losses.

Once a giant anemone a quarter the size of my tank died and I wasn't home. The tank stunk, no fish losses.

I went to Germany and my fish sitter let the water level drop 7". About a third of the tank. The water was so salty my hydrometer wouldn't even read it. I lost corals, but no fish.

I posted all these events on forums.

Fish immunity is easy to get but many people just don't believe it.

I depend on immunity for my tank which is why my fish never die from a communicable disease where quarantined tanks would crash as you can read on all these forums.
Many tanks are very delicate and disease is a big problem, but in an immune tank, it is a non issue as parasites can only barely survive but can't reach large numbers due to the fish immunity.

 

[HuduVudu]

Just to be clear, it is your assertion that imposing an isolation period for a fish will prevent the spread of infectious or contagious disease is up for debate?

Yes.
I guess it isn't up for debate with you so I will shake your hand virtually and go about my business.

 

[Mui_Gogeta]

For..i made the mistake of not..and now I have flatworms and vertmaid snails a wonderful patch of bubble algea.

Is there anything to be done? I too have flatworms vertmaid snails and bubble algae.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

flourishofmediocrit, I get this a lot and get your point. But if it were not true, my and many other tanks would not exist as I add parasite infected fish all the time and my tank has experienced probably dozens of blackouts along with quite a few other very severe stress events over many years.​

Just last week I cut out way to much sponges causing my water to turn white. I lost all my SPS corals and almost my urchin. I even lost a couple of fish including a long nose butterfly. But not to disease.

I once had 24 New York urchins spawn at once causing the water to look like heavy cream. No fish losses.

Once a giant anemone a quarter the size of my tank died and I wasn't home. The tank stunk, no fish losses.

I went to Germany and my fish sitter let the water level drop 7". About a third of the tank. The water was so salty my hydrometer wouldn't even read it. I lost corals, but no fish.

I posted all these events on forums.

Fish immunity is easy to get but many people just don't believe it.

I depend on immunity for my tank which is why my fish never die from a communicable disease where quarantined tanks would crash as you can read on all these forums.
Many tanks are very delicate and disease is a big problem, but in an immune tank, it is a non issue as parasites can only barely survive but can't reach large numbers due to the fish immunity.

That's all very compelling.

Look at it from my point of view:

You're saying "I didn't quarantine, and everything's fine, I didn't lose anything."

So, what about the people who bought a fish that had something and killed all their other fish? What are we supposed to do about that problem? They relied on immunity and it killed all their fish. Do we just throw our hands up and say "oh well, it happens..." or do we offer knowledge to maybe prevent that?

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

Flatworms= flatworm exit
Bubble algae = starve it out
Snail= they say bumble bee snails but I have seen the benefit

 

[N.Sreefer]

My biggest question when it comes to QT is how medications like copper effect cellulase enzyme and the symbiotic bacteria responsible for producing it, could it be preventing herbivorous fish from breaking down plant matter? Causing them to slowly waste away? Are the mucosa strong enough to break down food effectively by themselves without the aid of bacteria? Questions like that that we can't answer yet is why I believe its worth debating to QT or not.

 

[HuduVudu]

I’ve never had it go away on its own, but in really large systems (100,000 gallons+?) with really good water flow, it can become a chronic issue that the fish can live with. There is some evidence the fish can develop partial immunity. In smaller systems, it usually ends with fish loss.
I’ve seen minor Popeye with it, but usually it’s just a gray congested cloudiness.
Sorry, yes- using a FW dip as a diagnostic tool for them.
Jay

I doubt that you remember Jay, but you commented on my Build Thread.

You were commenting on my fish ... two butterflys, a Pakastani and a Sunset. You had said to watch for the Pakastani as they tend toward the disease which I can not name (because it is hard to remember). Whelp you may have been right. His eye puffed up a bit and got really cloudy. The fish also struggled to see from the eye. I am pretty sure that he had it. I can not state definitively that he did, because I don't have the equipment or the inclination to ensure it. Needless to say I thought he was going to live with it forever. I just kept feeding him and making sure everything was good. The dang Texas freeze didn't help the process, but his eye has cleared up and he is really strong.

I tried to find pics of him, but it isn't clear.

What are your thoughts? Maybe it was something else? Could he have cleared it?

 

[HuduVudu]

So, what about the people who bought a fish that had something and killed all their other fish? What are we supposed to do about that problem? They relied on immunity and it killed all their fish. Do we just throw our hands up and say "oh well, it happens..." or do we offer knowledge to maybe prevent that?

I offered an answer on another thread:

What will it take to change your mind about qt?

Not on purpose, I bought a coral from a tank that had velvet, according to many on here and elsewhere it’s said that coral can’t bring velvet/ick with them, well… surprise surprise coral will bring disease into a tank! Not lost a single fish to it, they just got a few spots for a few days and...

www.reef2reef.com

The problem is that the response is pretty involved and I don't think I can get a TL;DR version.

 

[HuduVudu]

Just last week I cut out way to much sponges causing my water to turn white.

What is that!??!?! I scraped the back of my tank and dumped the algae back in the tank and water turned white and killed my Slimer (coral) and put a hurtin' on my other corals. Seems like the fast growers get hit hardest.

 

[Jeffcb]

Only the dedicated will do that.

Well, looks like Against wins!

 

[jmichaelh7]

Well, looks like Against wins!

Ill do 76 day fallow and 30 day copper . I care about my fish and livestock too much to depend on the white dots going away from a “healthy immune” system by well fed frozen food

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

I have to see alot more study done before I'm convinced, I believe that to be debatable also. I have yet to see one study on the effects of antibiotics or other commonly used medication on fish microbiota and how this effects digestion. I would also like to see (with a large study group) what happens with fish placed in an established environment v a qt like environment (no rock algae or microfauna) and how this effects survival. I would also like to see a base survival rate (once recieved in country) established of how many fish will die one way or another. If you buy a fish that was cyanide captured it'll die in either situation skewing results without a proper control group. At one point drs thought giving everyone antibiotics for every sniffle was a good idea and that led to resistant strains. Looking at this objectively, I can see resistant strains of common fish pathogens coming into existence in the near future.

Quarantine protocols for fishes

Quarantine protocols for fishes

www.academia.edu

conclusion is on page 51

 

[atoll]

Then what is? For you is there anything that would convince you otherwise?

Asking for a friend.

Maybe we are just lucky and what we do to keep disease away is nothing but imagination and lies. Had those and more thrown my way.

I am not talking one tank I have set up and got no disease am talking 11 I think it is now. I have friends who have been keeping marines some as long as me who do similar with the same results.

To be honest am not really that interested what the denighers think or want to believe, that's up to them. It just winds me up when people suggest you must QT etc when I know it's simply not true and there are other successful methods.

My methods are outside the box and the norm but I go by results not by others theory and IMO unnecessary laborious ways to success. Often without the success I may add. My method has been proven for over 30 years and that's the bottom line.

 

[atoll]

@atoll looks like they finally caught up with you.

???

 

[Paul B]

You're saying "I didn't quarantine, and everything's fine, I didn't lose anything."

Yes I am. But this won't work in a New tank as nothing will work in a new tank. They just will not be healthy and they need to do something besides just quarantine or not quarantine. It isn't that simple and if you dump fish into that tank, they will probably die. It takes a while and I mentioned a diatom filter will help greatly with that. Of course you can go the copper route. It's your tank.

What is that!??!?! I scraped the back of my tank and dumped the algae back in the tank and water turned white and killed my Slimer (coral) and put a hurtin' on my other corals.

Hudu, my tank is loaded with encrusting sponges and I assume whatever it exudes while it is being cut is kind of toxic. I had to change almost 100% of my water. Now all is well. I won't use chemicals or carbon so I did the only thing I could do.

Ill do 76 day fallow and 30 day copper . I care about my fish and livestock too much to depend on the white dots going away from a “healthy immune” system by well fed frozen food

Yes, you should do that as many tanks should. Some tanks will just never become immune or healthy.
I did that myself when this hobby started. I kept copper in my water forever. Now I would never allow my fish to become infected with anything. But that was in the dark ages before I learned the secret.

Caring about your livestock means "only" letting them die from old age.

 

[atoll]

Yes I am. But this won't work in a New tank as nothing will work in a new tank. They just will not be healthy and they need to do something besides just quarantine or not quarantine. It isn't that simple and if you dump fish into that tank, they will probably die. It takes a while and I mentioned a diatom filter will help greatly with that. Of course you can go the copper route. It's your tank.

Hudu, my tank is loaded with encrusting sponges and I assume whatever it exudes while it is being cut is kind of toxic. I had to change almost 100% of my water. Now all is well. I won't use chemicals or carbon so I did the only thing I could do.

Yes, you should do that as many tanks should. Some tanks will just never become immune or healthy.
I did that myself when this hobby started. I kept copper in my water forever. Now I would never allow my fish to become infected with anything. But that was in the dark ages before I learned the secret.

Caring about your livestock means "only" letting them die from old age.

Am still trying to figure out how to stop my fish from dying of old age, stop them spawning and living a stress free healthy life. However, I think I have read answers above.

 

[Paul B]

Atoll my good buddy. What time is it there? It is 6:00 am here and cold. I am going for a walk on the beach as I always do. I think it will be rough today. To rough to collect all that parasite laden water.

 

[atoll]

Atoll my good buddy. What time is it there? It is 6:00 am here and cold. I am going for a walk on the beach as I always do. I think it will be rough today. To rough to collect all that parasite laden water.

11.10am here Paul. Some places in the UK have had heavy well heavy fir the UK snow fall.Saturday we had a storm which did quite a bit of damage.