QT Protocol Flowchart

[Humblefish]

Anyway, in the meantime, what's the best method to accommodate this little guy to ensure he's ich/velvet free? Am I stuck with TTM? I'm not a huge fan of TTM due to the stress of constant tank changes, but will take what I can get.

Unfortunately, yes. I know one LFS which has been experimenting with 10-14 days of copper treatment for dragonets (all kinds) and then he transfers them into a second QT for deworming. The objective is to limit their exposure time to copper and not combine prazi + copper with them. Unfortunately, mortality rate is close to 50%. He's fine with that, but I AM NOT. :mad: I personally consider anything greater than a 10% mortality rate to be a failed QT protocol.

Also will they tolerate Prazipro well?

IME; yes.

 

[melypr1985]

Anyway, in the meantime, what's the best method to accommodate this little guy to ensure he's ich/velvet free? Am I stuck with TTM? I'm not a huge fan of TTM due to the stress of constant tank changes, but will take what I can get.

TTM is the best method you can do unless you can get CP. It's really not all that stressful on the fish believe it or not. I've done so many TTM runs you wouldn't believe.

Also will they tolerate Prazipro well?

Yes

 

[Glasswalker]

Unfortunately, yes. I know one LFS which has been experimenting with 10-14 days of copper treatment for dragonets (all kinds) and then he transfers them into a second QT for deworming. The objective is to limit their exposure time to copper and not combine prazi + copper with them. Unfortunately, mortality rate is close to 50%. He's fine with that, but I AM NOT. :mad: I personally consider anything greater than a 10% mortality rate to be a failed QT protocol.



IME; yes.

I COMPLETELY agree... It's sad when the life of these animals is reduced to a profit margin equation.

TTM is the best method you can do unless you can get CP. It's really not all that stressful on the fish believe it or not. I've done so many TTM runs you wouldn't believe.

Yes

Thanks guys, that helps clarify the options.

I did have a chat with the assistant manager at the store, and he confirmed the tank the dragonets are in is on same system as his invert tanks, so no copper at all, not even low levels since they got them. They did not qt, or medicate them at all, and they have had them for about 2 weeks.

Also good news is they are supposedly actively eating frozen food in the store (I'll be viewing this for myself tomorrow to confirm). They do look plump and healthy.

I'm hoping the combo of being in the invert system, and 2 weeks in symptom free, combined with dragonets natural resistance to surface parasites, is a good sign.

I'm getting another small hospital tank to start this guy on prazi instead to buy time to hopefully source CP. Otherwise I'll then fall back to TTM with the 2 hospital tanks. (My primary hospital is in use for next week or two running an experiment on bryopsis with fluconazole).

I think I might make a few tweaks to the chart, since dragonets are so common now in the hobby and attractive to newbies. (Which is unfortunate due to the difficulties feeding them, but that's another topic entirely.

Just want to clarify the potential fallback to copper or ttm in some cases.

 

[Glasswalker]

@Humblefish or @melypr1985 (or anyone else who knows). Can you confirm if this:
https://www.amazon.ca/Life-Spectrum-Powder-Ick-Shield-Medium/dp/B00MNQWACU
Is a suitable source of CP (from a bit of reading, including some early posts from you @Humblefish back on RC) it looks like this is primarily CP.

I'm having a heck of a time finding a vet willing to write a prescription for the pure stuff (from what I've been able to find, there isn't a single one in my area that will treat fish, calling around, even with the background info, none will write a prescription).

But this stuff can be sourced here fairly easily (both on Amazon, and our big chain LFS apparently can get it in easily).

Thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[melypr1985]

@Humblefish or @melypr1985 (or anyone else who knows). Can you confirm if this:
https://www.amazon.ca/Life-Spectrum-Powder-Ick-Shield-Medium/dp/B00MNQWACU
Is a suitable source of CP (from a bit of reading, including some early posts from you @Humblefish back on RC) it looks like this is primarily CP.

I'm having a heck of a time finding a vet willing to write a prescription for the pure stuff (from what I've been able to find, there isn't a single one in my area that will treat fish, calling around, even with the background info, none will write a prescription).

But this stuff can be sourced here fairly easily (both on Amazon, and our big chain LFS apparently can get it in easily).

Thoughts?

Thanks!

I know your question was addressed in the other thread, but for anybody else who sees this and wonders..... NLS ick shield does contain CP, but the problem lies in that you don't know the purity of the CP or the concentration of it. There is no way to know if your fish are getting therapeutic levels of it without thousands of dollars worth of equipment to test for it.

 

[Glasswalker]

I know your question was addressed in the other thread, but for anybody else who sees this and wonders..... NLS ick shield does contain CP, but the problem lies in that you don't know the purity of the CP or the concentration of it. There is no way to know if your fish are getting therapeutic levels of it without thousands of dollars worth of equipment to test for it.

Well that's unfortunate, was hoping that since it listed only CP as it's ingredients, and it's dosage seemed to be approximately in-line with the protocol, that it might be pure CP powder... Is that brand not reputable (relatively?)

Is it that nobody has ever tested/confirmed it's purity? Or that even if we do test one container as pure, we don't trust that others are?

Anyway, guess it's back to the hunt for a vet that will prescribe it... (I've called a lot of them in my area so far and all spit out the generic "We don't treat fish" answer and won't go any further than that).

I've searched and there appears to be one fish vet in Toronto, but that's a fair distance from where I am in Ottawa (about 5 hours drive). I did email them though, hoping that they might prescribe remotely.

Once I find a source I'll be sure to share it for other canadians that might be on the hunt

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[Humblefish]

@Glasswalker The issue with NLS Ick Shield is it's CP sourced from China, where quality control standards can be suspect. Even if NLS tested one batch and it was 99% pure, they would need to continue testing each & every batch they received to ensure quality. I sorta doubt that is happening since the last time I checked it was gonna cost me over $400 just to have one sample of CP tested. Or unless NLS has a pharmacist or chemist on staff with the proper testing equipment.

 

[Glasswalker]

@Glasswalker The issue with NLS Ick Shield is it's CP sourced from China, where quality control standards can be suspect. Even if NLS tested one batch and it was 99% pure, they would need to continue testing each & every batch they received to ensure quality. I sorta doubt that is happening since the last time I checked it was gonna cost me over $400 just to have one sample of CP tested. Or unless NLS has a pharmacist or chemist on staff with the proper testing equipment.

Ok, fair enough. Not trying to argue it, just understanding why it's being called into question. Just a shame with how much of a pain CP is to acquire, would be nice if we could trust an actual packaged "over the counter" option targeted for aquarium use. I wonder what one has to go through to get approved to sell CP, sounds like there is a market opportunity there lol

 

[Humblefish]

I wonder what one has to go through to get approved to sell CP, sounds like there is a market opportunity there lol

Get the govt. out of the way. In the US, CP is regulated by the FDA and subject to DEA compliance. I understand they have a job to do stopping cocaine, heroin, etc. trafficking. But who cares if someone buys an antimalarial without a Rx? It's bitter tasting and you can't get high off of it.

 

[drstardust]

Hi there!

I just joined this forum after hearing so many great things about it. I have great interest in infectious diseases affecting fish; I would say it's my main sub-interest within the hobby. I just stumbled upon this thread and I must say I am very impressed with your protocol! It is very well thought out, easy to follow, and useful.

If I may, I would like to make a suggestion for you to consider. I would switch the order of the copper/CP treatment and the prazipro treatment, and here is why: if you treat with CP/copper (x 30 days, let's say), you may have tomonts that are still unhatched after that point (the whole 72 days thing). Low risk, but possible. If you remove the copper and do prazipro for a few weeks, you may have the bad luck of a tomont hatching once the copper is gone and the subsequent theront infecting your fish (during the 2 weeks of just prazi). If you do Prazi in HT --> Copper/CP in HT --> to QT there is a lower chance of this occurring.
Of course, I am operating under the assumption that you will remove the copper/stop dosing CP before doing prazi rather than keep it going with prazi simultaneously.

Would love to know your thoughts.

 

[Humblefish]

If I may, I would like to make a suggestion for you to consider. I would switch the order of the copper/CP treatment and the prazipro treatment, and here is why: if you treat with CP/copper (x 30 days, let's say), you may have tomonts that are still unhatched after that point (the whole 72 days thing). Low risk, but possible. If you remove the copper and do prazipro for a few weeks, you may have the bad luck of a tomont hatching once the copper is gone and the subsequent theront infecting your fish (during the 2 weeks of just prazi). If you do Prazi in HT --> Copper/CP in HT --> to QT there is a lower chance of this occurring.
Of course, I am operating under the assumption that you will remove the copper/stop dosing CP before doing prazi rather than keep it going with prazi simultaneously.

Two problems:

1. If a fish has ich, the lifecycle continues in the QT until copper or CP reaches a therapeutic level. So a fish may still have trophonts and they will drop off to form new tomonts even though copper or CP is now present in the water. Remember, chemicals (and hypo) have only been proven to successfully target the free swimming stage which excysts from the tomont.
2. A fish with velvet will sometimes never show obvious physical symptoms because it dies due to asphyxiation. So, a fish with velvet will probably die whilst treating with Prazipro. Due to the recent prevalence of this disease, treating for it first & foremost with copper/CP is probably a wiser course of action.

 

[drstardust]

Two problems:

1. If a fish has ich, the lifecycle continues in the QT until copper or CP reaches a therapeutic level. So a fish may still have trophonts and they will drop off to form new tomonts even though copper or CP is now present in the water. Remember, chemicals (and hypo) have only been proven to successfully target the free swimming stage which excysts from the tomont.
2. A fish with velvet will sometimes never show obvious physical symptoms because it dies due to asphyxiation. So, a fish with velvet will probably die whilst treating with Prazipro. Due to the recent prevalence of this disease, treating for it first & foremost with copper/CP is probably a wiser course of action.

You bring up a good point about velvet. I guess there are mixed opinions around about the velvet thing in terms of chemical prophylaxis vs the "only treat it if you see it" mentality.
With your first point, I see what you're saying but I'm not sure I follow how that part would be different in either protocol.
For instance, with the copper first protocol, you are observing the fish for some days first/waiting for copper levels to become therapeutic, during which trophonts could drop off infected fish, encyst as tomonts, and if luck is bad enough, wait to excyst until the prazi period at which time the copper is gone and won't affect the theronts, and the life cycle will not be halted.

 

[Humblefish]

For instance, with the copper first protocol, you are observing the fish for some days first/waiting for copper levels to become therapeutic, during which trophonts could drop off infected fish, encyst as tomonts, and if luck is bad enough, wait to excyst until the prazi period at which time the copper is gone and won't affect the theronts, and the life cycle will not be halted.

The point is there is no benefit to doing Prazipro first with regard to encysted tomonts. For all intents and purposes the "72 day clock" doesn't start until copper/CP has reached therapeutic, regardless of when you do it. The lifecycle of the parasite continues unabated in QT until a chemical or hypo is present to interrupt it's lifecycle.

Most strains of ich complete their entire lifecycle in 30 days or less. However, to guard against a strain with a prolonged lifecycle (including the 72 day strain) one has two choices:

1. Observe for at least 2 weeks post-treatment to ensure symptoms do not return.
2. Transfer the fish to a different QT after the 30 day treatment period.

In a perfect world we would just treat all fish for 72 days (or longer) with copper or CP to cover all the bases. However, most fish either wouldn't survive that long of a treatment period or would at the very least have side effects from it.

 

[drstardust]

In a perfect world we would just treat all fish for 72 days (or longer) with copper or CP to cover all the bases. However, most fish either wouldn't survive that long of a treatment period or would at the very least have side effects from it.

Indeed. Thank you for the discussion and thoughts. I'd love to have your thoughts on my own qt protocol. Perhaps I can PM you?

 

[Humblefish]

Perhaps I can PM you?

That would be fine.

 

[KC V.]

New Image below with several fixes, though I don't have ability to edit my original post anymore... @Humblefish do you have ability to do that?


Definitely, from what I can see CP is definitely preferred treatment, which is why I default to it. But that is one concern is that CP isn't as easily acquired for everyone. So in that case fallback to Copper, or TTM would be suitable as a substitute I'd imagine.


Yes of course! Though use the new version as it's improved


No worries at all I appreciate the feedback, you'll notice on the new version I revised to have a check for symptoms/pests and re-treat option for coral, and re-arranged to sterilization bits to make it less prone to mis-interpretation. Also fixed the day count, and a few other things

I'm not easily offended by critical feedback, I'd rather get it right so that it can be a useful resource for the community, and hopefully not lead people to make costly and unfortunate mistakes!

Ok, new image here, if anyone can help me edit the original post I'd gladly do so.

Also I'll be working on one of these for both a symptomatic diagnosis/treatment protocol, and an emergency/salvage protocol as well. Those are less "basic" and will definitely need more feedback. Will post them when they are ready

Thank you! This visualization is very helpful is getting my plans for the next acquisition ready!