QT - updating filter (and media)

[Simon_M]

I have a display tank that is cycled. Also a QT that started cycling at about the same time. This is primarily about the choice of bio media. I've selected Seachem Matrix (over De Nitrate) because of the fast flow - see the last paragraph.

The QT tank is the Fluval Sea Evo that is 52L and has three chambers on the peninsula. The suggested layout is:

1. 1st chamber has an (optional) protein skimmer;
2. 2nd chamber has filter media - supplied with a sponge and small amount of ceramic biological media;
3. 3rd chamber has the return pump and (suggested) the heater.

I don't have the protein skimmer - it's a QT. The 2nd chamber has a (not so good) sponge filter with space for a small bag or ceramic bio and (optionally) also a supplied small bag of carbon. The 2nd chamber is the weakest part of the setup IMHO and the filtration is perhaps not up to much. The 2nd chamber has a hole half way up through to the tank with the intention of not letting any of the chambers get starved of water - a good idea except that most of the filter water bypasses the 1st chamber and some of the second chamber. Many users know that this best blocked off.

I decided to upgrade the filter using an InTank media tray in chamber one. There is also a 2nd media tray for the 2nd chamber - that I don't have. The InTank also comes with a flow control (weir) and a plug for the 2nd chamber. One feature of the 1st chamber are slots up the side designed to pass water at different points into the 2nd chamber. The InTank blanks off many of the slots so that only the lowest three slots pass water between chambers and the flow is therefore more controlling through the first chamber.

My plan is to let the water pass through floss at the top. Then through (optional) activated carbon and finally through a bio media before passing into the second chamber. I didn't get the second InTank basket because it looks like only the lowest compartment receives water from the 1st chamber and I plan to use the 2nd chamber for my heater. In theory the 3rd chamber is used for the heater and return pump but I found this forces the heater and pump against the chamber walls and causes audible (annoying) vibration. I put the heater in the 1st chamber, but with the new media basket, I will move it to chamber 2.

So far, I have blocked off the slot in the 2nd chamber but I wasn't happy with how the nitrification cycle has gone. Only with lots of water changes can I reduce nitrate to about 25 ppm and so far nitrite is lowest at 1 ppm. My main tank has these under better control.

The media I inititially selected for the bio media was Seachem De - Nitrate in a media bag. I would have put it under the floss in the 2nd/3rd compartment in the 1st chamber. The issue I face is that it requires a low flow rate of only 200L per hour. My Fluval pump is moving 500ml or water through each of the twin outputs (e.g. into a measuring jug) in 10 seconds. That is 500L per hour. The spec is for 500L per hour and it matches this exactly. Often the flow rate is reduced in a filter when there is media but because the three chambers are open, the flow rate is not affected. The pump takes water and puts of 500L per hour. The media lets through water so that none of the chambers is without water and the levels can adjust and settle. Providing the levels are setup the throughput isn't affected by the media e.g. it just works.

So my preferred media is Seachem Matrix. This supports higher flow rates than De - Nitrate. It's the same (pumice type) material but is
bigger than the De - Nitrate. The theory being that the anaerobic bacteria are less affected by faster flow. So I went with the manufacturers recommendation to use Matrix. The alternative was to swap out the pump for a smaller version but even so low flow rates are hard to find and I would prefer the faster flow rate with adjusted media type. Perhaps a faster flow can be accommodated by limiting the amount of media in a bag so that water bypasses it to some extent and so the faster flow rate isn't seen through the media bag. This seems had to achieve? Using Matrix vs De Nitrate (with the flow rate) was a good choice?

Simon

 

[MnFish1]

I do not think what material you use makes a difference. BUT - what I do think is that you may be overdoing what a QT tank is supposed to be. - Which to my opinion is a simple small tank - that is completely cleaned between each use - to be sure that there are no surviving parasites, bad actors persisting. Now - just so we understand eachother - if you're planning to use the 'QT' tank for observation - and then plan another tank as a hospital tank (meaning you're planning 3 tanks) you can ignore what I'm saying. But - since some diseases can survive despite fallow periods, its best to just put the fish in Do your QT protocol - then sterilize the tank etc - and re-use it. Just my opinion. But - you asked a specific question - any bio media should be the same - I might use a non-porous material (bioballs) as compared to other media that are more likely to adsorb any medication assuming you're planning to medicate this tank

 

[Simon_M]

Thanks for the reply. You are right, I may be over thinking it. This is my first marine tank for 30+ years and will be the first reef rather than fish only tank.

I reentered the marine hobby by getting a 180L display tank and whilst setting it up, added a 52L (13.5 gallon) quarantine tank. The plan was to cycle each addition through the QT before moving it to the DT and repeating the process.

In the past, I would setup a tank and let the nitrification process complete, but for a QT, I couldn't see how that would work. I used AMT Colony to "setup" the QT but have been successfully using Red Sea Reef Mature Pro for the DT - which is "complete" and has "clean up crew" but no fish.

Results with AMT Colony were mixed with two Clowns quickly dying and with one very healthy Clown replacement and one additional Clown dying. A success rate of 25% and a comparison of how the two tanks matured prompted me to revisit the QT setup.

The QT is a Fluval 13.5 (52L) tank. The three chambers are very ineffective for filtration because the 2nd chamber has a foam block and two tiny spaces for bio media. There is almost no flow through the 1st chamber because the 2nd has a bypass hole that causes all the flow to avoid passing through the 1st chamber.

To fix this I plan to add the InTank Chamber 1 and a bio media - Seachem Matrix. I measured the flow rate using a jug and it is the stated 500L per hour, otherwise I would have used Seachem De Nitrate. My first fix was to block up the bypass hole - it's clear that the sponge filter is inadequate. Bio media and a bag isn't expensive and the InTank additions only help provide an organised flow that was lacking.

From what I have read, Seachem Matrix and De Nitrate are the same product but with a different size of material. I'm interested in having a filter bed so either would work and the increase in volume (that has water through it) compared to what I had will be 10x-20x.

I'm also interested in anaerobic bio processing but I'm sceptical that either product can work - maybe in a lab but not in a tank. The new "plan" is to use the QT for observation but with the option to treat if required e.g. Cupramine and later carbon to remove it etc. I have the option to remove the Matrix bag(s) and I have an additional sponge in my DT that can be used to "seed" a QT rather than use the AMT Colony again.

The over thinking bit was to try to prevent a repeat of first QT setup as 75% losses are to be avoided. The AMT Colony may be successful for some, but I'm of the opinion that is "speeds up" but isn't an "instant" solution. It probably didn't help that the Clowns were not TB, so not as hardy as some or that I was gullible to listen to the LFS and their claims that AMT Colony was either the only startup method to adopt - more likely to aid the process of their selling fish.

Simon

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[LeftyReefer]

If a fish dies in QT, are you going to reuse the Matrix again or toss it and replace it?

I like to keep my QT simple... quick and easy to clean.

I use a 20G (long) with a simple HOB filter, heater, and airstone, and a ammonia badge.

just an assortment of sponges and floss in the filter. Floss for mechanical filtration... I feed heavy in QT. So the floss is good at capturing the bits of food that goes uneaten, and can be tossed and replaced every few days. Sponges hold the bacteria and can be quickly rinsed or cleaned when needed. If I need to break the QT down quickly, clean it, and set it back up again, it's easy to do. Toss the floss, bleach the sponges and HOB filter, heater, etc.. in a bucket. rinse them out with a little dechlorinator for good measure. Refill the tank, add some bottled bacteria and ready for new fish again.

If you use Matrix, there's not a good way to clean it.... you can bleach it and then rinse it I guess... but that seems like a hassle. And how long is enough to get all the stuff deep inside the matrix pores?? When I used matrix in my QT, I always ended up just tossing it and then replacing it. Things aren't cheap in this hobby, but no sense in using it only to toss it out... so I quit using it in QT. now I just use extra sponges in the HOB.

I also keep plenty of PVC elbows in my QT tank. Great places for the fish to hide, and again, easy to take out and clean quickly and it provides more surface area for the bacteria to live.

 

[Simon_M]

If a fish dies in QT, are you going to reuse the Matrix again or toss it and replace it?

It depends upon how much is required e.g. fill the space, fill the bag, space in a chamber. Mostly, because I have lots of it - to toss it. It would be interesting to know if it could be sterilised e.g. 30 minutes in an oven on a baking sheet at 150 C - I might ask Seachem for their view - it is pumice based?

Floss for mechanical filtration... I feed heavy in QT.

I have two bags of mechanical floss - no longer using filter manufacturer's floss.

If I need to break the QT down quickly, clean it, and set it back up again, it's easy to do. Toss the floss, bleach the sponges and HOB filter, heater, etc.. in a bucket. rinse them out with a little dechlorinator for good measure. Refill the tank, add some bottled bacteria and ready for new fish again.

Is adding bottled bacteria and off we go again really like that? Does bottle bacteria shorten the cycle rather than eliminate it e.g. immediately at 100% operation rather than after a week?

If you use Matrix, there's not a good way to clean it.... you can bleach it and then rinse it I guess... but that seems like a hassle. And how long is enough to get all the stuff deep inside the matrix pores? When I used matrix in my QT, I always ended up just tossing it and then replacing it. Things aren't cheap in this hobby, but no sense in using it only to toss it out... so I quit using it in QT. now I just use extra sponges in the HOB.

I have Matrix and also some De Nitrate. I have the InTank for Chamber 1 and also for Chamber 2. Where the flow is controlled, the water passes through at 500lph. For this I have Matrix. Where the 2nd chamber is without a direct path through so I can use De Nitrate where up to 200lph is the limit.

Whilst nothing is cheap, a small bag of Matrix isn't expensive vs the cost of a fish (or it's livelihood)? An alternative to sterilising it might be to leave it to dy out and not be used e.g. after 60 days.

I also keep plenty of PVC elbows in my QT tank. Great places for the fish to hide, and again, easy to take out and clean quickly and it provides more surface area for the bacteria to live.

I have a 2" T Piece. Already had some smaller 40mm T Pieces but they don't look big enough (to me) and this being the least cost, in the hobby, I went for a bigger one.

Overall, I'm wondering if my losses are a result of ecxpecting too much from AMT Colony. I also added Cupramine at half the expected rate. So it might have been acclimation, copper and other factors. I have switched to a (not so close) LFS because they don't use copper routinely and appear to quarantine (for a few weeks) new fish that come up for sale. So far, my cleaner crew seem OK and my confidence increases (a bit).

Simon

 

[Simon_M]

I had thought there would be circumstances when Matrix should be removed. The problem is that it maintains the nitrogen cycle so removal shouldn't be done lightly. Seachem list when it shouldn't be retained - precious few e.g. using Cupramine - it doesn't make a difference. The main reason to remove it? After something went wrong and you want to start over? So clean up and start over with new material?

 

[HankstankXXL750]

I had thought there would be circumstances when Matrix should be removed. The problem is that it maintains the nitrogen cycle so removal shouldn't be done lightly. Seachem list when it shouldn't be retained - precious few e.g. using Cupramine - it doesn't make a difference. The main reason to remove it? After something went wrong and you want to start over? So clean up and start over with new material?

I use matrix in my QT observation system. If I see ich/velvet I move to TTM for treatment as I try to avoid meds. After each observation period I stir the matrix in hot water to clean it of guck, then dry it. After completely dry 30-60 days I put it back in a media bag and reseed it by putting it in one of my sumps. That allows it to have a jump start for the next time I get new fish.
I only tear down my observation system if I end up with a sick fish in it.

The 20’s and all related equipment I use for Hospital get torn down, cleaned with vinegar and thoroughly dried to be set up again later. For a QT Matrix or De-Nitrate would both work for a bio media. Low flow for de nitrate is more about nitrate removal, which shouldn’t be a real issue in a QT as it is easily controlled by water changes.

Bacterial starters are not an instant cycle, they just aide in it. I use Seachem Prime and Aquavitro Seed with success. But depending on QT size and number of fish, water changes can help get through the cycle in a QT. Having a sponge of other media from an existing source (DT sump
Etc certainly helps. But that media needs to be run in DT for a month to have enough and the right bacteria present.

 

[Simon_M]

With QT I got good results with Matrix and De-Nitrate.

After two weeks the Nitrite readings were 0 and the Nitrate was 2 ppm using Salifert Test Kits.

I have De-Nitrate in a slow section of my QT filter and Matrix in the fast section. Circulation is fastest at 650 lph that is too quick for the De-Nitrate - hence why I placed it outside of the regular flow.