Quarantine Experience with Copperband Butterfly Fish

[LaloJ]

The are different species of mollies and some adapt better than others (sail fins do better than sphenops). All require a slow acclimation, especially if going from pure FW to full salt, I prefer doing that in a tank over three days.
Using mollies as a disease indicator really only works well for marine ich.
Jay

That is interesting and so I had some doubts, I wonder how the mollys would react to different diseases like velvet or flukes, what would the symptoms be or would it just go unnoticed?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you still use Mollies in your QT tanks or for any fragile fish @Jay Hemdal

No, I don’t use mollies as indicators. There are a number of reasons why this is a cool idea but doesn’t work well in practice. I’ll post my thoughts about it to the other person in this thread.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That is interesting and so I had some doubts, I wonder how the mollys would react to different diseases like velvet or flukes, what would the symptoms be or would it just go unnoticed?

Here is a write up I did for my book on using mollies:

Using black mollies to screen an aquarium for Cryptocaryon

In recent years, a procedure has been promoted that uses marine-adapted freshwater mollies to screen for active Cryptocaryon infections in marine aquariums. The thought is that freshwater black mollies that are naïve to marine ectoparasites, will soon develop infections if that disease is present in a marine aquarium.

With mollies being stark black, white parasites will show up in sharp contrast, making their identification much easier. Mollies have also been suggested to be housed alongside sensitive fish (that cannot be easily medicated) to serve as a “canary in the coal mine” for active disease.

The basic process is to acquire a small group of freshwater black mollies and gradually acclimate them to seawater over a period of up to 5 to 7 days. They then are added to the previously fallow aquarium, or added to the quarantine tank, and then observed for at least two weeks to see if they develop ectoparasites. If they do, then a treatment needs to be instituted, or the fallow period extended.

As with many aquarium ideas, over-extrapolation can reduce the effectiveness of the original idea. The process is really only suited to screen for Cryptocaryon. Brooklynella may not even infect mollies. Uronema and Amyloodinium can survive salinities as low as 3 ppt so may already be present in “freshwater” mollies that have been raised in brackish fish ponds. Marine and freshwater fish have basically the same internal salinity. Therefore, untreatable internal diseases, such as viruses and Myxozoans could possibly be brought into an aquarium with the mollies.

There is a risk for introducing euryhaline trematodes into an aquarium along with black mollies. Fish farmers, wholesalers and retail dealers all understand that mollies benefit from being housed in brackish water, and so they usually add salt to systems housing mollies in order to reduce mortality under crowded conditions. Euryhaline trematodes take advantage of this, the trouble is that some of these can survive marine conditions and then hyposalinity is ineffective as a treatment for them.

Finally, there is no scientific evidence to indicate this method is actually effective, it is based on a theory, but it needs to be better tested. If properly applied, this process may have some benefit in screening for Cryptocaryon, but falls short for other diseases.

Jay

 

[EakTheFreak]

Here is a write up I did for my book on using mollies:

Using black mollies to screen an aquarium for Cryptocaryon

In recent years, a procedure has been promoted that uses marine-adapted freshwater mollies to screen for active Cryptocaryon infections in marine aquariums. The thought is that freshwater black mollies that are naïve to marine ectoparasites, will soon develop infections if that disease is present in a marine aquarium.

With mollies being stark black, white parasites will show up in sharp contrast, making their identification much easier. Mollies have also been suggested to be housed alongside sensitive fish (that cannot be easily medicated) to serve as a “canary in the coal mine” for active disease.

The basic process is to acquire a small group of freshwater black mollies and gradually acclimate them to seawater over a period of up to 5 to 7 days. They then are added to the previously fallow aquarium, or added to the quarantine tank, and then observed for at least two weeks to see if they develop ectoparasites. If they do, then a treatment needs to be instituted, or the fallow period extended.

As with many aquarium ideas, over-extrapolation can reduce the effectiveness of the original idea. The process is really only suited to screen for Cryptocaryon. Brooklynella may not even infect mollies. Uronema and Amyloodinium can survive salinities as low as 3 ppt so may already be present in “freshwater” mollies that have been raised in brackish fish ponds. Marine and freshwater fish have basically the same internal salinity. Therefore, untreatable internal diseases, such as viruses and Myxozoans could possibly be brought into an aquarium with the mollies.

There is a risk for introducing euryhaline trematodes into an aquarium along with black mollies. Fish farmers, wholesalers and retail dealers all understand that mollies benefit from being housed in brackish water, and so they usually add salt to systems housing mollies in order to reduce mortality under crowded conditions. Euryhaline trematodes take advantage of this, the trouble is that some of these can survive marine conditions and then hyposalinity is ineffective as a treatment for them.

Finally, there is no scientific evidence to indicate this method is actually effective, it is based on a theory, but it needs to be better tested. If properly applied, this process may have some benefit in screening for Cryptocaryon, but falls short for other diseases.

Jay

Do you know if they are leaning towards doing more scientific evidence in order to prove the method effective or effective in specific areas?

Also, how many tests & time needs to be put forward before it can be deemed scientific evidence. Generally just trying to learn and curious!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you know if they are leaning towards doing more scientific evidence in order to prove the method effective or effective in specific areas?

Also, how many tests & time needs to be put forward before it can be deemed scientific evidence. Generally just trying to learn and curious!

I don't know of any on-going studies on this topic.

Mollies have been used for in vitro culture Cryptocaryon on fish. It is probably those studies that gave the idea of using them in this fashion: Yoshinaga, T. and H.W. Dickerson. 1994. Laboratory propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans on a saltwater-adapted hybrid, the Black Molly. Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6: 197–201.

"Scientific" was a poor choice of words on my part, I'd be happy just to see some clinical trials. It is unlikely that this hypothesis will ever be tested as a full study because the people running those studies are almost all involved in fisheries research, and this method would have not direct application to them (they have no lateral viewing of the fish to see the ich spots).

Jay

 

[EakTheFreak]

I don't know of any on-going studies on this topic.

Mollies have been used for in vitro culture Cryptocaryon on fish. It is probably those studies that gave the idea of using them in this fashion: Yoshinaga, T. and H.W. Dickerson. 1994. Laboratory propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans on a saltwater-adapted hybrid, the Black Molly. Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6: 197–201.

"Scientific" was a poor choice of words on my part, I'd be happy just to see some clinical trials. It is unlikely that this hypothesis will ever be tested as a full study because the people running those studies are almost all involved in fisheries research, and this method would have not direct application to them (they have no lateral viewing of the fish to see the ich spots).

Jay

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Tcook]

Those that are using "live" clam, do you worry about parasites as these are saltwater creatures? Do you freeze them for 48 hours first?

 

[EakTheFreak]

Those that are using "live" clam, do you worry about parasites as these are saltwater creatures? Do you freeze them for 48 hours first?

I personally buy them from a store that only sells fresh seafood and it’s a trusted source. I buy them live & normally shuck them then blend them in a meat grinder.

I then freeze up slices of them and small pieces before feeding. I’ve also just put the shell with clam in when my CBB was in QT.

 

[LaloJ]

I guess butterflies and angels react better to fresh clams than frozen, I personally haven't found a source of fresh clams or mussels, but I have bought frozen at the supermarket and it seems to work regularly.

 

[EakTheFreak]

I guess butterflies and angels react better to fresh clams than frozen, I personally haven't found a source of fresh clams or mussels, but I have bought frozen at the supermarket and it seems to work regularly.

What’s the most difficult fish you have kept?

 

[Tamberav]

Those that are using "live" clam, do you worry about parasites as these are saltwater creatures? Do you freeze them for 48 hours first?

I buy fresh clams and freeze them as it is way easier to chop them up or shave off pieces of a frozen clam then a slimey one.

The thing is if you can find them fresh, even if you freeze them, they are still fresh and not clams that have been sitting frozen for who knows how long like what the LFS has. If you eat seafood, you know quality matters a lot for your taste buds.

 

[EakTheFreak]

I buy fresh clams and freeze them as it is way easier to chop them up or shave off pieces of a frozen clam then a slimey one.

The thing is if you can find them fresh, even if you freeze them, they are still fresh and not clams that have been sitting frozen for who knows how long like what the LFS has.

I totally agree with this!!! I will open the shell slightly before freezing them though so it’s easier to get them out but keep them in loctite ziplock containers in my deep freezer.

A cheap meat grinder on Amazon also made grinding them up and then freezing easy. I do a mixture of both options!!

My Copperband is now 2+ years old in my tank and was probably a year old or so when I got him.

This is what he eats as of today:
• LRS Reef Frenzy
• Hikari Mysis Shrimp
• Live white worms
• Frozen/Live clam slices

 

[LaloJ]

What’s the most difficult fish you have kept?

Without a doubt, the coralivore butterflies have been the most difficult, I have tried with four eye and baronessa. I also had Multibar angelfish and Regal angelfish, they never fed anything, I had Multibar angel for more than a month, and Regal for only a week, I didn't have much experience to deal with a fish of that demand and I have not returned to it attempt. I have had Singapore angelfish on three or four occasions and only once was I able to see the fish eat, everything was going well but unfortunately I became seriously ill and the fish were neglected, I have not tried another one either .

 

[EakTheFreak]

Without a doubt, the coralivore butterflies have been the most difficult, I have tried with four eye and baronessa. I also had Multibar angelfish and Regal angelfish, they never fed anything, I had Multibar angel for more than a month, and Regal for only a week, I didn't have much experience to deal with a fish of that demand and I have not returned to it attempt. I have had Singapore angelfish on three or four occasions and only once was I able to see the fish eat, everything was going well but unfortunately I became seriously ill and the fish were neglected, I have not tried another one either .

Interesting fish to say the least!!

The Regal angelfish has always been a fish I want I fear them eating too many of my corals and I also have 17 fish in a 150 gallon tank which has a coral beauty & flame angel in it already.

Maybe someday I will get a Regal Angel when I upgrade to a 250 gallon tank!

 

[Syntax1235]

I buy fresh mussels or clams and then freeze them. I use an elastic to secure the clam to a rock and then drill a couple holes in the shell. The holes are big enough for the CB and too small for any other fish. I’ve only had my CB for a couple weeks and it will only eat clams and mussels at this point.

I hope the CB starts eating other food soon, it’s quite a bit of effort for one fish!

 

[EakTheFreak]

I buy fresh mussels or clams and then freeze them. I use an elastic to secure the clam to a rock and then drill a couple holes in the shell. The holes are big enough for the CB and too small for any other fish. I’ve only had my CB for a couple weeks and it will only eat clams and mussels at this point.

I hope the CB starts eating other food soon, it’s quite a bit of effort for one fish!

Agreed! I’ve never put more effort in for a single fish but I will say now that I’ve had him for 2+ years and in my DT he is my favorite fish.

He loves to follow me when I go up to the tank. Eats like a pig even from the water column and is fat and happy!!

The added insane bonus, NO APTASIA in my DT!!

 

[Syntax1235]

Agreed! I’ve never put more effort in for a single fish but I will say now that I’ve had him for 2+ years and in my DT he is my favorite fish.

He loves to follow me when I go up to the tank. Eats like a pig even from the water column and is fat and happy!!

The added insane bonus, NO APTASIA in my DT!!

I had a growing issue of some type of worm with multiple long tentacle things, I think spaghetti worms…. The second day the copperband was in the tank they were all gone!

 

[EakTheFreak]

I had a growing issue of some type of worm with multiple long tentacle things, I think spaghetti worms…. The second day the copperband was in the tank they were all gone!

That’s why they are the best! Coolest look fish, best personality & it’s serves a purpose!!

 

[LaloJ]

Interesting fish to say the least!!

The Regal angelfish has always been a fish I want I fear them eating too many of my corals and I also have 17 fish in a 150 gallon tank which has a coral beauty & flame angel in it already.

Maybe someday I will get a Regal Angel when I upgrade to a 250 gallon tank!

You can opt for a juvenile Regal angel to lessen the risk of stinging corals, don't worry about tank size as they are fairly slow growing. I may upgrade to a 120 or 130 gallon tank, I would love a Regal but juvenile is unlikely to get it, and I don't think an adult would be comfortable in that size tank, unfortunately I just lost my two years coral beauty angel due to the cold snap, he was an aggressive guy so that leaves an open space for more angelfish in the future. 250 gallon is a very nice size tank.

 

[EakTheFreak]

You can opt for a juvenile Regal angel to lessen the risk of stinging corals, don't worry about tank size as they are fairly slow growing. I may upgrade to a 120 or 130 gallon tank, I would love a Regal but juvenile is unlikely to get it, and I don't think an adult would be comfortable in that size tank, unfortunately I just lost my two years coral beauty angel due to the cold snap, he was an aggressive guy so that leaves an open space for more angelfish in the future. 250 gallon is a very nice size tank.

Are juvenile regals hard to get then?