Quarantining: The pros & cons

[MnFish1]

Guess what it wasn't the public aquariums that got us where we are today. Arrogance, will always get you into trouble and blind you.

What arrogance are you talking about - How did public aquariums get us to where we are today? Is that good or bad?

My opinion is going to be that you can't sterilize a system of all diseases unless you kill everything including the fish.

I think this is where @chipmunkofdoom2 was saying nothing would convince you that QT won't kill fish... Frankly, I'm not sure what the 2 of you are arguing about.

You can't prove you don't have any parasites in your tanks and I find it humorous that you think you can. Can you tell me you guy's aren't running UV sterilizers on these systems? You have healthy fish that can defend for themselves at the moment.

It's impossible to 'prove a negative'. What's your point? None of the people who have so-called 'immune tanks' can 'prove' that they have parasites in the actual tank either. All we can do is what 'makes the most sense' based on the evidence 'we have'. Right? Would you also say the world health organizations efforts to eliminate measles, smallpox, malaria, etc are not well thought out - because we will never be able to 'prove' that the last malaria parasite (etc) is killed?

 

[MnFish1]

Frankly, I don't understand the '2 sides here'. It's clear - parasites cause disease. It's clear various forms of stress can make any pathogen more virulent. It's clear, if the pathogens are removed, stress won't kill the fish alone (usually - unless its non-stop unrelenting and im not sure you can even say that). The goal with QT is to remove as many of the pathogens from the DT as possible in as safe a manner as possible. It makes sense. Doing other things is playing Russian roulette.

Do fish die in QT? Yes. Do fish (and entire tanks) die from parasite outbreaks? Yes. The question should be not either/or - but which method results in the fewest fatalities. IMHO

 

[Humblefish]

Frankly, I don't understand the '2 sides here'. It's clear - parasites cause disease. It's clear various forms of stress can make any pathogen more virulent. It's clear, if the pathogens are removed, stress won't kill the fish alone (usually - unless its non-stop unrelenting and im not sure you can even say that). The goal with QT is to remove as many of the pathogens from the DT as possible in as safe a manner as possible. It makes sense. Doing other things is playing Russian roulette.

Do fish die in QT? Yes. Do fish (and entire tanks) die from parasite outbreaks? Yes. The question should be not either/or - but which method results in the fewest fatalities. IMHO

^^ Nailed it! Everyone is looking for a 100% perfect solution nowadays when no such thing exists. Fish can & do die in QT; and I suppose sometimes the "stress" of being in QT can be a contributing factor. (I.E. Fish refuses to eat in an unnatural environment.) But for those who feel the bare bottom/PVC elbow approach to QTing is bad, you can always setup a mini-DT for QT purposes. Just be sure to have another tank (+ equipment) on standby in case you need to treat with medications.

Placing a fish directly into a DT really is Russian roulette, some just get to play longer than others.

 

[Trickman2]

^^ Nailed it! Everyone is looking for a 100% perfect solution nowadays when no such thing exists. Fish can & do die in QT; and I suppose sometimes the "stress" of being in QT can be a contributing factor. (I.E. Fish refuses to eat in an unnatural environment.) But for those who feel the bare bottom/PVC elbow approach to QTing is bad, you can always setup a mini-DT for QT purposes. Just be sure to have another tank (+ equipment) on standby in case you need to treat with medications.

Placing a fish directly into a DT really is Russian roulette, some just get to play longer than others.

Not sure I would compare it to dramatic as Russian roulette but I guess we shouldn't argue semantics. I think treatment options have come along ways for Reef tanks and options for a DT system and thankfully so. Now, I will have to say that you do compound things by adding more variables such as more hosts, less treatment options, possible stress due to other tank mates when added directly to the tank. In general depending on the fish and condition it shows up you should probably try to QT the fish for at least a observation period in a QT environment. I don't believe you can ever rid a aquarium of parasites or diseases and much remains dormant in normal healthy fish. That is just my opinion but I believe a good QT protocol or at mininum a good protocol for introduction including some sort of preventative treatment such as metronidazole/garlic/focus should help mitigate the risks so that you don't wind up with a pandemic on your hands. Also I do admit that QT is the safer option in general as you have less factors to mitigate and don't risk any of your other fish becoming a casualty;Dead to circumstances. As with most problems needing a solution you first must isolate the source, identify the issue. Finding the best fix (treatment option in this case) is simplified with less variables in a QT system and allows you to focus/treat without dealing with variables created by a display tank. In either case fish can become casualties to circumstances.

So the truth of the matter is a QT system really allows you to eliminate variables that may compound issues or get in the way of all treatment options available. Seems simple but you will still have to deal with the variables that are present in your display tank once introduced again to another new environment. Hence as Humblefish gracefully put it... "there is never going to be a 100 perfect solution.

You do the best you can with your unique circumstances presented as not one single aquarium or fish will every be identical.


Now for the conversation with @chipmunkofdoom2 I shouldn't get all riled up but I get a little frustrated when I feel people are putting words in my mouth or try to get up on a soapbox. Sometimes it is best to just let it go.

 

[MnFish1]

For example Im in the market to buy my first fish in several months to replace one of my gold flake angels - I had a mated pair - and the larger one jumped out. True story @Paul B

I went to my LFS - Said I want a Goldflake angel they said - will check - can probably get it by Friday. I said - yeah - but what about quarantine - he stated - the supplier they use quarantines/keeps the fish for 30 days minimum - and the LFS would be willing to put it through their protocol of QT as well. I'm comfortable with this. Comfortable enough that I don't want to set up a separate system and risk the ammonia, etc other problems with it. Though I easily could do so. Am I right? Am I wrong? IDK - I do remember when I started out in this hobby having fish after fish after fish die in small tanks due to cycling problems (which would be the same in a QT I would set up on my own).

If one were looking at it from the standpoint of PETA etc, I still think the best solution to this is not individual hobbyists setting up quarantine tanks - but instead a good supplier that does it for you 'the right way' - with a guarantee. It would save fish, and it would save effort because a big operation could do it much more cost effectively than I can. Of course this eats into other profits in the chain.

 

[MnFish1]

Not sure I would compare it to dramatic as Russian roulette but I guess we shouldn't argue semantics.

IMHO the reason its 'Russian roulette' is that 1. You dont know if tank has a parasite (strain) to which the fish has been exposed - meaning it may get infected and live or it may get infected or die. 2. You don't know if the fish you're introducing has a parasite (or strain of a parasite) to which the tank inhabitants have not been exposed.

The reason that most people seem to succeed (until there are problems (I can testify to this)) - is because they are actually lucky. Firstly, they aren't adding fish every week, second most wild fish have some immunity. 3. They have parasite removal equipment in their tanks (I.e. UV/Ozone, etc) that lowers parasite numbers to similar to what they are in the ocean and thus become much less dangerous.... again only IMHO

 

[MnFish1]

Here is a quote from a recent ariticle - why do you think they do it this way?

More than 600 goldfish have found sanctuary at the aquarium over the last two years, where they are well taken care of and enjoy much more space to swim around.

And the fish aren’t just plopped into the tank when they arrive. Surrendered goldfish undergo a regimen of antibiotics and treatments while under quarantine for at least a month before being introduced to their new fish society, the Good News Network reported.

“Some of them arrive very weak," biologist Celine Bezault said in a statement. She also mentioned that the fish grow much larger at the aquarium than any fish bowl could allow, sometimes between eight and 12 inches.

 

[4FordFamily]

Not sure I would compare it to dramatic as Russian roulette but I guess we shouldn't argue semantics. I think treatment options have come along ways for Reef tanks and options for a DT system and thankfully so. Now, I will have to say that you do compound things by adding more variables such as more hosts, less treatment options, possible stress due to other tank mates when added directly to the tank. In general depending on the fish and condition it shows up you should probably try to QT the fish for at least a observation period in a QT environment. I don't believe you can ever rid a aquarium of parasites or diseases and much remains dormant in normal healthy fish. That is just my opinion but I believe a good QT protocol or at mininum a good protocol for introduction including some sort of preventative treatment such as metronidazole/garlic/focus should help mitigate the risks so that you don't wind up with a pandemic on your hands. Also I do admit that QT is the safer option in general as you have less factors to mitigate and don't risk any of your other fish becoming a casualty;Dead to circumstances. As with most problems needing a solution you first must isolate the source, identify the issue. Finding the best fix (treatment option in this case) is simplified with less variables in a QT system and allows you to focus/treat without dealing with variables created by a display tank. In either case fish can become casualties to circumstances.

So the truth of the matter is a QT system really allows you to eliminate variables that may compound issues or get in the way of all treatment options available. Seems simple but you will still have to deal with the variables that are present in your display tank once introduced again to another new environment. Hence as Humblefish gracefully put it... "there is never going to be a 100 perfect solution.

You do the best you can with your unique circumstances presented as not one single aquarium or fish will every be identical.


Now for the conversation with @chipmunkofdoom2 I shouldn't get all riled up but I get a little frustrated when I feel people are putting words in my mouth or try to get up on a soapbox. Sometimes it is best to just let it go.

Can you remove lice, leeches, or other parasites from yourself? If you stayed in a box where no one else was afflicted with these, would stress make them spawn again like Master Chief from Halo?

All sarcasm aside, I was relatively successful for about a decade without quarantine. I didn’t/couldn’t keep acanthurus tangs long-term with these methods but several other fish thrived, some for a good amount of time. Now, I’m 3-4 years in to quarantine and it’s so much easier once they’re in the DT and many expert level fish call my tanks home that I couldn’t keep before.

1) Your livestock choices play an important role
2) The distribution system for fish these days (at least in the US) is horrendous. Disease is seemingly exponentially more prevalent. Until the past 6 months, I hadn’t ever lost a fish to an infection. @HotRocks and I have lost about 15 fish on three separate occasions after complete sterilization that killed in 24-36 hours from the first symptom. Velvet is child’s play in comparison- but also MUCH more common these days.

 

[brwaldbaum]

An estimated 70-90% of fish don't survive all this, so as bad as the supply chain is right now it's safe to say the fish we are getting are still the "toughest" of the lot.

They're the toughest of the lot that failed to elude capture. I've always wondered if that implied anything about their health to begin with.

 

[Humblefish]

I think treatment options have come along ways for Reef tanks and options for a DT system and thankfully so.

Actually, most of the same management tools (UV, Ozone, Diatom Filter, Oxydator) have been around for decades.

Some of the "herbal remedies" are new, but many have the same ingredients as past products.

 

[ReefWithCare]

No, I can't prove that stress weakened the immune system and made the fish more susceptible to disease. But, you can't prove that it did. You have not provided any evidence to the claim that 60% of fatalities in fish occur because of stress. So, while I respect you and your opinion, I also must disagree.

I also respectfully disagree with the notion that you cannot have a disease-free fish. Displays like the Aquarium's Black Tip Reef have over a thousand individual animals. This would not be possible if any single one of them had a communicable fish disease. Sure, sometimes individual fish may get infections and need to be treated, but diseases like ich, velvet or Brooklynella would devastate that display. We don't have the resources to quarantine and medicate every animal in that display. So, we QT with an almost militant discipline, and interestingly, no diseases get in the tank.

You don't need to do a necropsy or to gather data to make informed descisions. You have the experience of reefers like @Humblefish, @4FordFamily and many other experience fish disease veterans who have already done the research for you. Fish don't die without reason. Does stress likely play a part in fishes getting sick? Sure. Have you, or has anyone else, successfully quantified that? Not that I am aware of, although if you have these resources, I'd love to see them. Quarantine tanks, if properly set up, are not that different than display tanks. A display tank has a way to remediate ammonia and plenty of hiding places. So does a good QT. There are some fish that are ill, sick, or injured, and are just going to die in QT. Putting them in QT didn't make them die though. You advise me to look outside my own experiences and question my hyposthesis, but again, with respect, your experience is just an anecdote too. I'd advise you attempt to broaden your horizons as well. Talk to people who disagree with you, not just those with whom you agree.

We don't just necropsy fish, we necropsy every single animal that dies. Every snake, every frog, every turtle, every eel, every ray, every skate and every abalone. And as I said though, I cannot release that information publicly. We partner with Johns Hopkins for the necropsy services and there are confidentiality agreements to which we must adhere. Fun fact, I'm also not allowed to share any pictures taken in backup or non-public areas without express written permission of my supervisor. I value my work at the Aquarium much more than I would value losing it to share confidential necropsy reports with you, especially since it does not sound like any information will convince you that QT doesn't kill.



This is unnecessary. All you need is a standard 20g - 30g aquarium, a heater, a pump, some PVC elbows and an ammonia badge.

What is the typical QT procedure and timeframe of QT at a aquarium like yours? That I would really like to know. Do you QT corals as well - what is the duo process.

I heard aquariums get a lot of livestock from seized imports so the QT process makes a ton of sense

 

[Trickman2]

Can you remove lice, leeches, or other parasites from yourself? If you stayed in a box where no one else was afflicted with these, would stress make them spawn again like Master Chief from Halo?

All sarcasm aside, I was relatively successful for about a decade without quarantine. I didn’t/couldn’t keep acanthurus tangs long-term with these methods but several other fish thrived, some for a good amount of time. Now, I’m 3-4 years in to quarantine and it’s so much easier once they’re in the DT and many expert level fish call my tanks home that I couldn’t keep before.

1) Your livestock choices play an important role
2) The distribution system for fish these days (at least in the US) is horrendous. Disease is seemingly exponentially more prevalent. Until the past 6 months, I hadn’t ever lost a fish to an infection. @HotRocks and I have lost about 15 fish on three separate occasions after complete sterilization that killed in 24-36 hours from the first symptom. Velvet is child’s play in comparison- but also MUCH more common these days.

Interesting and sad all at the same time. What is your current QT systems and procedures?

 

[mdbronco]

I’m new (or actually coming out of a long retirement) to the hobby and read this last night. Despite a very ticked off wife, I set up a QT tank. I only have a single fish now in my DT and it was at the LFS for a couple of months and seems healthy. Hopefully he didn’t bring anything in with him, but each fish post will be going into a new QT. My only issue is should I proactively treat vs observe and how to. This post helped a lot so thank-you.

 

[4FordFamily]

Interesting and sad all at the same time. What is your current QT systems and procedures?

I follow humblefish’s stickies. I QT 30 days in copper, treat with general cure for flukes and the like afterward two doses 6 days apart, antibiotics as necessary, and I feed general cure and focus soaked foods for internal parasites for 10-14 days.

I run dual 55 gallon quarantines, but we quarantine a high number of fish.

 

[stevieduk]

great article and links. do you know who it was that first found out that you could treat fish successfully with copper, guess they found out after that it didnt work with inverts

 

[truetricia]

This is amazing, Humble. Yes, please sticky.

Also worth mentioning is the possibility of doing both things. I rigorously quarantine, but despite that, a couple of times in my reefing career something has made it through nevertheless. (ich once, velvet once). Since, as you said, QT is not 100%. Nothing is. As such, starting soon I will plan to set up a UV on my DT and maintain it religiously. I'm hopeful that if something ever makes it through again, it would then be a manageable situation rather than a disaster.

Question for @Humblefish or the community. Is there any benefit to using a UV on a QT tank to kill off parasites? I know a UV sterilizer for my upcoming display tank will be expensive, but a smaller one on a QT tank would be affordable.

 

[salty joe]

Another question for Humblefish- For a new fish in QT, do you recommend immediately treating for velvet regardless of lack of symptoms?

 

[alton]

First of all there are many much more qualified fish keepers on here than me, but here are my steps to getting fish in and carrying for them. Most of my fish come from LA or DD. They arrive at my place of work around 10am. The are drip acclimated for at least a 1/2 hour, depending on the size. Since I mostly have tangs and angelfish they go through a 5 to 20 minute FW bath. Then into regular seawater with from my 65 gallon tank here at work which I then add prazi-pro to where they will remain for about six hours till I get home and place them in a 29 gallon tank with a foam air filter, power head, heater, and most times liverock. They will stay in there for 4+ weeks. I do not have any copper or prazi in the 29. So why keep them in there? Well LA and DD do have a 2 week guarantee. If a fish dies it is easy to scoop out and send pictures to LA or DD. If they where added to my 180 or 65 I would never find them nor would I get my refund. Plus the 29 is in a quiet room where I am the only person that sees and feeds them. I have attached a picture of a Flame Wrasse that was in the Qt and now resides in my 180.

And now in the 180

In closing I have lost fish years ago because I gambled and thought I/my fish where invincible, no more.

 

[EmdeReef]

Question for @Humblefish or the community. Is there any benefit to using a UV on a QT tank to kill off parasites? I know a UV sterilizer for my upcoming display tank will be expensive, but a smaller one on a QT tank would be affordable.

I wouldn't use a UV light if you are treating with antibiotics as it may lead to antibiotics photodegradation and even toxicity.

 

[truetricia]

I wouldn't use a UV light if you are treating with antibiotics as it may lead to antibiotics photodegradation and even toxicity.

So let's say you're not using any medications, and using the TTM. Would a UV light be a good idea there? Provide any benefits worth the cost of the UV light? Then stop using the UV and treat with antibiotics or Prazipro (which says not to use with UV)?