Question About Stocking Fish

Joe Tony

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Hello. I had a few questions regarding what I should do here. So recently I got an ocellaris clownfish pair and its getting along well enough (as well as you can expect) with my yellowtail damsel. The tank is a 30 gallon and has about 30 lb. of live rock, give or take, and has a deep 5-inch sandbed. The tank is established, having been running for 18 months now, with tons of pods, coralline algae, etc. I'd like to get a new orchid dottyback to add a splash of purple, occupy the left side of my live rock, provide a bit more nitrate for my corals (because it was basically 0 before and was told that around 5ppm is a healthier amount for the zooxanthelae) and to further help keep my damsel in check. I was wondering if that would work out, not only in terms of aggression, but also the nitrogen cycle...

...which brings me to my second question. There was a crash in my tank about 5-6 months back, in which I had a banggai cardinal, a clownfish pair, and an orchid dottyback. One died and soon the others followed suite, after I've had the fish for a couple months prior to that. I may have been dosing too much with the calcium and alkalinity, as well as iron, and I wonder if that was what killed the fish, or if having four fish in my 30 gallon tank was too much, and as they grew, the ammonia build up became too much for my bacteria to convert, despite the amount of live rock and sand I had in there. I didn't see any signs of any possible infection or disease on any of them, I bought them all captive-bred, and they were doing fine and growing over the course of those few months, until eventually the crash happened.

I'm afraid that if I get an orchid dottyback in the tank I have set up, it might lead to another crash, if it was an issue with ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. If you guys think maybe it was an issue with dosing or even a disease, then I think I'll get the purple fish.

Here's a picture of the tank so you know how much rock/sand there is, relative to the water. As you can see the damsel hangs out in the caves to the right side and I have no fish occupying the caves on the left.

20210103_124559[1].jpg
 
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Joe Tony

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Adding one or two fish isn’t going to break your nitrogen cycle. I would QT the fish before adding tho.
I don't have a quarantine tank, or space in my room for one. But I'm not too worried about the aggression issue, after seeing the damsel living in relative peace with the clownfish. But if there's no worry about an ammonia spike happening with four small fish in my established tank, what do you think caused the crash those 6 months ago?
 

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I think you are looking for wild guesses without more info. Do you have your water numbers pre and post crash? That goes a long way toward identifying suspects. Pics will also be requested. Pre and post crash. The sand bed will be a suspect at 5" deep. I think that is in the not deep enough to be deep and too shallow to be considered a deep sand bed.
 
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Joe Tony

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I think you are looking for wild guesses without more info. Do you have your water numbers pre and post crash? That goes a long way toward identifying suspects. Pics will also be requested. Pre and post crash. The sand bed will be a suspect at 5" deep. I think that is in the not deep enough to be deep and too shallow to be considered a deep sand bed.
I don't have the numbers or pictures pre crash, just the one I sent you. What I'm really just asking, in its simplest terms is, with the tank that is presented above, and having been running for around 18 months, would a fourth fish--an orchid dottyback--be too much; heirgo, would it crash the tank with more ammonia than can be managed?
 

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I don't have the numbers or pictures pre crash, just the one I sent you. What I'm really just asking, in its simplest terms is, with the tank that is presented above, and having been running for around 18 months, would a fourth fish--an orchid dottyback--be too much; heirgo, would it crash the tank with more ammonia than can be managed?
Nah adding 2 more fish wouldn't cause you cycle to crash.. but I would be curious to know what caused your previous issue before adding anymore .
 
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Joe Tony

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I can't say for certain, but if I had to guess, I'd say it was the iron I was adding to the tank. It was building up to much and I may have been sloppy with overdosing back then. Or it could have been the calcium and alkalinity, or even the occasional iodide I put in for molting, but that was only added once or twice a month. I don't have any other possible explanations.

Unless it was just old age for one of the fishes, and that caused the ammonia spike for the rest.
 

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The ol risk reward conundrum. I’d like to know I wasn’t just throwing cash away by adding more fish but sometimes bad things just happen. I’d be more mindful and add what you want just be judicious in your choices.
 
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Joe Tony

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The ol risk reward conundrum. I’d like to know I wasn’t just throwing cash away by adding more fish but sometimes bad things just happen. I’d be more mindful and add what you want just be judicious in your choices.
I'm gonna get an orchid dottyback, and then wait until I upgrade to a 55 or 75 (haven't decided yet) before adding a few more fish.
 
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I'm gonna get an orchid dottyback, and then wait until I upgrade to a 55 or 75 (haven't decided yet) before adding a few more fish.
I'm gonna get an orchid dottyback, and then wait until I upgrade to a 55 or 75 (haven't decided yet) before adding a few more fish.
 

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If you get a 75 a smaller Tang: Kole, Tomini, Squaretail, White Tail Bristletooth could be an option but make it your only larger fish (though IMO a 90 would be better even for these Tangs in the long run but consensus has it that 75-80 is fine for these smaller ones).

IMO a custom 80-gallon tank (48” x 20” x 20”) would be better than a standard 75. Extra 2” of width means easier to aquascape and you sacrifice maybe 1” in height, not a fan of tall tanks anyway.

What I’d do is go 18” in height and 48” x 22” x 18” for 78.46 gallons.
 
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If you get a 75 a smaller Tang: Kole, Tomini, Squaretail, White Tail Bristletooth could be an option but make it your only larger fish (though IMO a 90 would be better even for these Tangs in the long run but consensus has it that 75-80 is fine for these smaller ones).

IMO a custom 80-gallon tank (48” x 20” x 20”) would be better than a standard 75. Extra 2” of width means easier to aquascape and you sacrifice maybe 1” in height, not a fan of tall tanks anyway.

What I’d do is go 18” in height and 48” x 22” x 18” for 78.46 gallons.
I'm actually not interested in getting a tang. I was thinking more banggai cardinalfish, yellow watchman goby, and maybe a couple others I haven't thought about.

What about a 100 gallon?
 

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A 100-gallon would be the minimum for one of the smaller Genicanthus angels IMO but not a pair. Smaller as in Watanabei, Spot Breast, Bellus. Maybe you could also add one of the Roaps butterflies (Burgess, Mitratus, Tinker’s, Declivis etc.) or perhaps some other comparatively more reef-safe butterflies but ask. An article says Lemon Butterflies, Guentheri Butterflies, and Atlantic Reef Butterflies have been kept successfully in reefs before. Don’t know about the Atlantic Longnose (Prognathodes Aculeatus), they’re the smallest of all the butterflies and comparatively hardy too but don’t take my word as gospel.

You can expect the smaller Genicanthus species I’ve mentioned to top out at maybe 5.5-6”, maybe a bit smaller (4.5-5”) for the Watanabei.

Or maybe even a Marine Betta, one of my dream fish. Not very active for their size. Ask for more info on keeping them.

Not sure about a Yellow Pyramid so ask around for members who’ve kept them but Yellow Pyramid / Black Zoster are planktivores, some of the most reef safe butterflies. Basically the butterfly equivalent to the Genicanthus angels. However I wouldn’t do both Yellow Pyramid / Zoster (single only in a 100) and a Genicanthus in a 100, one of the two if the other members think a Yellow / Zoster is okay in this sized tank.

IMO for a 100-gallon tank 60” x 22” x 18” would be what I’d go for. Custom tank, technically 98.07 gallons.

What other fish would you be interested in? Colors, shapes, behaviors etc. Many wrasses, blennies, would work. Hawkfish (Long Nose, maybe Flame too is fairly invert safe from what I’ve heard but ask). Almost all dwarf angels. Smaller Hogfishes (Pacific Red Stripe, Yellow Candy) though ask about their compatibility with inverts and other wrasses / other fish.

I think a smaller Genicanthus could make a nice centerpiece given my dimensions. Ask around but if a Roaps butterfly is okay in a 100 with my dimensions, that and the smaller Genicanthus (most likely female) would work well together.

Paul B has a 6’ 100-gallon tank that’s 72” x 18” x 18” but the 18” might be too narrow for your taste.
 
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A 100-gallon would be the minimum for one of the smaller Genicanthus angels IMO but not a pair. Smaller as in Watanabei, Spot Breast, Bellus. Maybe you could also add one of the Roaps butterflies (Burgess, Mitratus, Tinker’s, Declivis etc.) or perhaps some other comparatively more reef-safe butterflies but ask. An article says Lemon Butterflies, Guentheri Butterflies, and Atlantic Reef Butterflies have been kept successfully in reefs before. Don’t know about the Atlantic Longnose (Prognathodes Aculeatus), they’re the smallest of all the butterflies and comparatively hardy too but don’t take my word as gospel.

You can expect the smaller Genicanthus species I’ve mentioned to top out at maybe 5.5-6”, maybe a bit smaller (4.5-5”) for the Watanabei.

Or maybe even a Marine Betta, one of my dream fish. Not very active for their size. Ask for more info on keeping them.

Not sure about a Yellow Pyramid so ask around for members who’ve kept them but Yellow Pyramid / Black Zoster are planktivores, some of the most reef safe butterflies. Basically the butterfly equivalent to the Genicanthus angels. However I wouldn’t do both Yellow Pyramid / Zoster (single only in a 100) and a Genicanthus in a 100, one of the two if the other members think a Yellow / Zoster is okay in this sized tank.

IMO for a 100-gallon tank 60” x 22” x 18” would be what I’d go for. Custom tank, technically 98.07 gallons.

What other fish would you be interested in? Colors, shapes, behaviors etc. Many wrasses, blennies, would work. Hawkfish (Long Nose, maybe Flame too is fairly invert safe from what I’ve heard but ask). Almost all dwarf angels. Smaller Hogfishes (Pacific Red Stripe, Yellow Candy) though ask about their compatibility with inverts and other wrasses / other fish.

I think a smaller Genicanthus could make a nice centerpiece given my dimensions. Ask around but if a Roaps butterfly is okay in a 100 with my dimensions, that and the smaller Genicanthus (most likely female) would work well together.

Paul B has a 6’ 100-gallon tank that’s 72” x 18” x 18” but the 18” might be too narrow for your taste.
Well as much as I like the look of moray eels and marine bettas, I like my inverts more XD

But generally speaking, a diversity of shapes and colors is what I'm looking for, with only the clownfish being in a pair. No coral nippers or predatory fish

But I was speaking more in terms of aquascaping live rock. You said an 80 gallon is better than 75, but how does an 100 compare.

I'm also looking for an emphasis on length, much more than height, though I'd want the stand to be high enough for me to look at the tank straight in the eye.
 

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:) A standard 100 won’t really give you much more to work with than a standard 75 considering they’re both 4’ tanks, I said an 80 is better than a standard 75 because my version of the 80 adds an extra 2” in width, going from the 18” width of the standard 75 to 20” so hopefully the extra 2” would be a bit better for the aquascaping. What my version of the 80 “sacrifices” compared to the standard 75 is about an inch in height but IMO height’s not nearly as important as Length and width.

My version of the 100 gives 60” or 5’ of swimming space over the 4’ of the standard 100, while adding a further 2” in width compared to my version of the 80. 18” height IMO would make it a shallow tank but again height’s not all that important IMO unless you’re keeping some larger and taller fish.

It depends on what risks you’re willing to take with corals, no angel or butterfly I’d say is 100% guaranteed reef safe but the Genicanthus angels and some of the butterflies I mentioned are about as close as it gets. If I were you I’d be willing to accept that risk for what are some really nice looking fish.

Another route to go, if you are willing to get a nice and tight fitting top, would be quite a few wrasses. Evolved has pretty much a wrasse only tank. Many Fairy Wrasses, pretty much all Flasher Wrasses, and all the smaller Halichoeres would be fine for a 100. However in terms of fish families that would mean less variety.

If you see a couple of species that interest you feel free to keep us updated.
 
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Joe Tony

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:) A standard 100 won’t really give you much more to work with than a standard 75 considering they’re both 4’ tanks, I said an 80 is better than a standard 75 because my version of the 80 adds an extra 2” in width, going from the 18” width of the standard 75 to 20” so hopefully the extra 2” would be a bit better for the aquascaping. What my version of the 80 “sacrifices” compared to the standard 75 is about an inch in height but IMO height’s not nearly as important as Length and width.

My version of the 100 gives 60” or 5’ of swimming space over the 4’ of the standard 100, while adding a further 2” in width compared to my version of the 80. 18” height IMO would make it a shallow tank but again height’s not all that important IMO unless you’re keeping some larger and taller fish.

It depends on what risks you’re willing to take with corals, no angel or butterfly I’d say is 100% guaranteed reef safe but the Genicanthus angels and some of the butterflies I mentioned are about as close as it gets. If I were you I’d be willing to accept that risk for what are some really nice looking fish.

Another route to go, if you are willing to get a nice and tight fitting top, would be quite a few wrasses. Evolved has pretty much a wrasse only tank. Many Fairy Wrasses, pretty much all Flasher Wrasses, and all the smaller Halichoeres would be fine for a 100. However in terms of fish families that would mean less variety.

If you see a couple of species that interest you feel free to keep us updated.
One of those brightly colored reddish orange peaceful fairy wrasses would be cool, but a sixline wrasse isn't for me. I'm one of those reefers who enjoys his bristleworms, feather dusters, clams, etc. and I'd rather not have a creature that's definitely a predator to them.

Would you definitely recommend I get a tank with customized dimensions, instead of a pre-manufactured tank from Amazon, Petsmart, Petco, etc.?
 

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Hi, reading through most of this, I do not think a dottyback will throw your system into an issue. However, I am concerned about what you are adding to the tank and why? Generally on smaller tanks water changes are sufficient to keep parameters in check without dosing unless it is totally filled with sps or clams. Your tank does not look like it would need any dosing.
I am just very leery of dosing anything in my systems. Good luck with a larger tank.
 
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Joe Tony

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Hi, reading through most of this, I do not think a dottyback will throw your system into an issue. However, I am concerned about what you are adding to the tank and why? Generally on smaller tanks water changes are sufficient to keep parameters in check without dosing unless it is totally filled with sps or clams. Your tank does not look like it would need any dosing.
I am just very leery of dosing anything in my systems. Good luck with a larger tank.
The reason why I've added iron has been for my red grape caulerpa. As for the calcium and alkalinity, it's mostly been based on the findings of my API test kit, which I'm discovering may not have been accurate at all. I've since really cooled it with the dosing, but have continued to dose iron and non-toxic iodide in EXTREMELY tiny incriments (the iodide is for molting of my inverts)

And I've also come to realize, based on the discussions in this forum, that the overdosing of way too much iron, may have been the most likely cause for the crash in the tank.
 

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Thanks for clarifying. I think sometimes when new reef keepers get into the hobby they feel they have to dose things because they read about it or get the newest gadgets. Sometimes it is best to just get a feel for how the system works as a whole and not get so hung up on one or two parameters.

Water changes with good seawater is all that is needed most of the time. This is true in smaller systems. After one gets a handle on the basics, then a person can get more in depth with certain species or types of tank to run.
JMO
 

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