Randy's Tank and Learn Thread

[Johnd651]

BRS did tests to see how much each salt really cost, and most of them were surprisingly similar.

But if there were some really significant difference I think we'd have known about it for some time now.

Unless your buying it by the pallet. IO seemed to always win when i had to buy it in bulk back then.

 

[BryanM]

Return Pump Turnover Rate



Perfect topic for a discussion. :)

I'm expecting to have pretty low turnover. 1x per hours seems plenty to me for these reasons:

1. In tank flow is provided by in tank powerheads (the Tunze stream 6105 eco). Each provides 3,000 to 12,000 L per h flow. In a 120 gallon tank, that's 6.6 to 26 x turnover on each one. I do not anticipate running them near 100%.

2. I cannot think of anything that would change in the water in the tank in less than an hour that necessitates it being run through the filtration system. Not temperature, O2, pH, organics, waste products, etc.

3. Lower return flow is easier to accommodate from return pumps and from overflows and return pipes, with potentially lower sound.

Does anyone see a reason to want higher than 1x turnover per hour?

My tank definitely runs quieter with lower return pump speeds. I'm somewhere around 2x.

My only "wonder" would be temp, especially in the winter... Though I have no idea where you live. we don't keep our house all that warm, but I've also never really tried to see if the tmp would drop enough to be a concern.

 

[Johnd651]

Temperature Target



Another good topic!

I previously had a whole bunch of heaters in my old system and maintained pretty high and tightly controlled temps (about 81 in winter and 80 in summer, the seasonal difference allowing for temp drift during a power failure).

In this tank, I'm planning to lower the range and allow more variability. The primary driver is to reduce electricity cost when heating, coupled with the fact that many folks run lower without issue.

I was thinking to run at about 76 in winter and up to 81 in summer. That is, set heaters to maintain at least 76 and cooling to maintain not more than 81. I cannot be sure how many heaters that will take, so I will start with 2 x 300 w and escalate from there if needed. I do not think the daily temp change will be especially high, but that remains to be seen.

Those target values are up for debate as I am not fixated on them.

Comments?

I have not thought about cooling yet, since the dogs are in the same room and we keep AC on during the hot days in the mid 70s for them. But I run lower at 76 with a 1 degree swing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Awesome stuff, @Randy Holmes-Farley .

I haven’t read through the entire thread yet, but as one who recently added a Heteractis magnifica to his tank, I can say that I have been surprised at how long it has taken it to acclimate to even moderately intense LED lighting.

It wandered around the rock structure for about 2 weeks. It looked fine, but not amazing. Then one morning I found it in the sand, looking flat and dead. I replaced one of the rocks with one that had a very deep and large bowl in the middle of it, placed the anemone inside of it, and then placed the rock on the structure with the opening of the bowl perpendicular to angle of the light.

The anemone settled in, and it moved around a little, but finally settled in to a spot where it could recede into the rock opening but still open up to open water water above. It seems pretty happy, but is still shrinking up a bit under peak lighting intensity. I’m sure it will acclimate eventually, but it is definitely taking a while.

Thanks. I hear a variety of comments of how much light they need, and am unlikely to run the lights very bright before getting it since most other things I plan do not need beach intensity. Then I can raise lighting to whatever it likes.

I do plan to make a special smooth rock for it that I would place near or on the top of the rock island when I get a magnifica. I have many old rocks from my last tank that may be used. I want it to have a rock that it is happy attaching its foot to, while still being in good flow and lighting.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I use the 1.1 ml BRS Doser for kalk and it is fine. However, for AWC I would not trust them. I’ve done AWC before with much more reliable duel head pumps and iirc you have too?

I'm not really concerned about mismatch with the AWC. At 1% daily, it takes a good while for a mismatched delivery to show up as a significant salinity change in the display. It is one of the things I actually monitored regularly on my previous tank, and it is easy to adjust the new salt water up or down in salinity to deal with any mismatch. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have 2 of the 1.1. They are 1.25 and 2ml per minute, but I don’t mind because I just run them based on time.

Randy, instead of plugging into one timer, I suggest you verify actual rates.

Miami, You use instant ocean?

I will check them, but one timer mostly eliminates concerns with a timer problem. If it sticks on, it's just a bigger water change (assuming not a huge mismatch), and if it sticks off, then its just no water change . :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

BRS did tests to see how much each salt really cost, and most of them were surprisingly similar.

But if there were some really significant difference I think we'd have known about it for some time now.

The IO I just bought from Amazon was $67 for 200 gallon box, with free 2 day delivery. The 50 gallon bag is $21 and can be delivered free same day.

Same vendor, Red Sea 55 gallon blue bucket is $47 for 55 gallon bucket, and takes longer to arrive (5 days).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have not thought about cooling yet, since the dogs are in the same room and we keep AC on during the hot days in the mid 70s for them. But I run lower at 76 with a 1 degree swing.

We don't cool the first floor of this house, except by nightly ventilation and perhaps some cool air drifting down from the second floor, so the room temp in summer is usually around 78-82 inside the room with the tank. I'm hoping that with less heat from the lights (previously was 2 x 250 double ended mh plus some smaller lights) that the cooling load is lower. More on the cooling plan later, but it can handle the temps as needed.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I do plan to make a special smooth rock for it that I would place near or on the top of the rock island when I get a magnifica. I have many old rocks from my last tank that may be used. I want it to have a rock that it is happy attaching its foot to, while still being in good flow and lighting.

I had a large (~15lbs) rock that had a flat table top side. I cut the other end flat with a saws-all and cemented it upright to the bottom of the tank thinking the same thing you are.

Surprisingly, mine just wandered around the structure until I put that more textured piece in that it could move inside of. Not saying yours will do the same thing, but if yours doesn’t settle in on the smooth rock, you can try that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I had a large (~15lbs) rock that had a flat table top side. I cut the other end flat with a saws-all and cemented it upright to the bottom of the tank thinking the same thing you are.

Surprisingly, mine just wandered around the structure until I put that more textured piece in that it could move inside of. Not saying yours will do the same thing, but if yours doesn’t settle in on the smooth rock, you can try that.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Maybe too smooth isn't desirable. :)

 

[TeraHz]

Salt Choice and AWC
...

I am using normal IO to start the tank, and probably will continue to use it. I have a bucket and just ordered a 200 gallon box. It's all I used on my last tank. Is it better than other mixes? I'm not saying that. It is cheaper than other mixes, and I think then the appropriate question is whether using a more expensive mix gains something. That's what I'm not seeing. Gains what?

I'm very open to being convinced to use a different mix, so any opinions on what is better and why, let's hear them!

The cost difference per year between the cheapest(like IO) and the expensive(like ESV/TM Pro) for 1% daily change on a 120 tank is around $100 (and if you buy during sales, likely less). While not insignificant, given the cost of the hobby, I wouldn't consider it a major factor. Of course, if you don't need to spend it, it's better!

Residue in the storage tank and the speed of mixing were the only factors that made me pay the premium for the expensive salt. The first one because I'm lazy and will likely not want to clean out the Brute trash cans but also don't want to see the crud in them, and the second one from an emergency point of view. If I need to mix a large batch of SW fast, I'll have a stable mix faster with E.S.V. than IO. Per the BRStv investigates series, E.S.V. and TM Pro are the main contenders for those two benefit. I don't even consider the 10% higher amount of Calcium and Mg in E.S.V vs IO to be significant, though it likely makes the delta in cost even smaller.

My opinion :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Read tank is covered, but read you plan on a fug? I can go collect some mangrove propagules if you would like to add some to the fug. Will of course require additional lighting…

Thanks very much, but I don't think I can set it up to do that readily. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The cost difference per year between the cheapest(like IO) and the expensive(like ESV/TM Pro) for 1% daily change on a 120 tank is around $100 (and if you buy during sales, likely less). While not insignificant, given the cost of the hobby, I wouldn't consider it a major factor. Of course, if you don't need to spend it, it's better!

Residue in the storage tank and the speed of mixing were the only factors that made me pay the premium for the expensive salt. The first one because I'm lazy and will likely not want to clean out the Brute trash cans but also don't want to see the crud in them, and the second one from an emergency point of view. If I need to mix a large batch of SW fast, I'll have a stable mix faster with E.S.V. than IO. Per the BRStv investigates series, E.S.V. and TM Pro are the main contenders for those two benefit. I don't even consider the 10% higher amount of Calcium and Mg in E.S.V vs IO to be significant, though it likely makes the delta in cost even smaller.

My opinion :)

Thanks. :)

I plan to change about 2.5-3 gallons per day (which counts the sump volumes). So around a thousand gallons a year. Sales happen for all brands, but if we take TM Pro at $96 per 160 gallons ($0.6 gallon) and IO at $67 per 200 gallons ($0.34/gallon), the difference is about $260 per year.

That's not a major cost difference, but it is large enough to want to see something for it. Deposits in a Brute mixing can do not really concern me. :)

I'm not sure I understand the mixing time thing. Any salt can dissolve pretty fast with an adequate pump. Craig Bingman had an article long ago on how to do it in 5 minutes. :)

 

[BR260354]

Return Pump Turnover Rate



Perfect topic for a discussion. :)

I'm expecting to have pretty low turnover. 1x per hours seems plenty to me for these reasons:

1. In tank flow is provided by in tank powerheads (the Tunze stream 6105 eco). Each provides 3,000 to 12,000 L per h flow. In a 120 gallon tank, that's 6.6 to 26 x turnover on each one. I do not anticipate running them near 100%.

2. I cannot think of anything that would change in the water in the tank in less than an hour that necessitates it being run through the filtration system. Not temperature, O2, pH, organics, waste products, etc.

3. Lower return flow is easier to accommodate from return pumps and from overflows and return pipes, with potentially lower sound.

Does anyone see a reason to want higher than 1x turnover per hour?

I agree. I believe there is confusion on tank turnover rates. Some see 5-10x turnover thinking they need that for their returns. That huge! It's total tank - returns, powerheads/wave makers. I run about 3x on the returns and let the powerheads do the rest.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I agree. I believe there is confusion on tank turnover rates. Some see 5-10x turnover thinking they need that for their returns. That huge! It's total tank - returns, powerheads/wave makers. I run about 3x on the returns and let the powerheads do the rest.

Agreed. I think its a carry over from long ago before powerheads ruled the tank. :)

 

[Johnd651]

I agree. I believe there is confusion on tank turnover rates. Some see 5-10x turnover thinking they need that for their returns. That huge! It's total tank - returns, powerheads/wave makers. I run about 3x on the returns and let the powerheads do the rest.

So I have always followed the 3-10x sump to main tank turnover philosophy and in tank dependent on species being kept, but almost 40-60x rates for sps (everything else was lower). Just to put it in perspective, this is a picture from grad school when I was doing research on coral restoration. The white nozzle on the left sat there for months. That coral ended up being broken up many times for testing, and it seemed to do great with the high and directed flow. I dont have any other pics on my computer, that was 13 years ago.

 

[Wonkabar]

Following along

 

[TeraHz]

Thanks. :)

I plan to change about 2.5-3 gallons per day (which counts the sump volumes). So around a thousand gallons a year. Sales happen for all brands, but if we take TM Pro at $96 per 160 gallons ($0.6 gallon) and IO at $67 per 200 gallons ($0.34/gallon), the difference is about $260 per year.

That's not a major cost difference, but it is large enough to want to see something for it. Deposits in a Brute mixing can do not really concern me. :)

I'm not sure I understand the mixing time thing. Any salt can dissolve pretty fast with an adequate pump. Craig Bingman had an article long ago on how to do it in 5 minutes. :)

$260 is starting to sound more significant - I agree :)

As for the 5min mixing, I don't know what drill and propeller Craig Bingman would recommend for mixing 200G of salt, but I'm sure I don't have them lol. BRS Investigates showed IO wasn't ready even 24hrs later, using a powerhad and a heater.

Look now, I'm trying to justify my decision, don't you go highlighting the flaws in my thinking :D

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

$260 is starting to sound more significant - I agree :)

As for the 5min mixing, I don't know what drill and propeller Craig Bingman would recommend for mixing 200G of salt, but I'm sure I don't have them lol. BRS Investigates showed IO wasn't ready even 24hrs later, using a powerhad and a heater.

Look now, I'm trying to justify my decision, don't you go highlighting the flaws in my thinking :D

lol

Here's Craig's old article. He wasn't making 200 gallons, just showing that time is not a factor in mixing salt if you have enough power.

Aquarium Frontiers On-Line: September 1997: Biochemistry In The Aquarium

 

[TeraHz]

lol

Here's Craig's old article. He wasn't making 200 gallons, just showing that time is not a factor in mixing salt if you have enough power.

Aquarium Frontiers On-Line: September 1997: Biochemistry In The Aquarium

My next mixing station
:rolling-on-the-floor-laughing: