Rapid Unexplained Deaths in New Fish

[Wandering Albatross]

Wish it was a good morning all, I just received a delivery Friday morning/early afternoon. 4 fish were ordered, a medium mandarin, small spotted mandarin, and 2 ornate wrasse. Everyone was fine and active in the bag (as active as they can be in a confined space). When they got in the tank, of course everyone went to hide. The little green is doing good, the medium male was good for all of Friday, then dead unmarred/marked in the corner Saturday morning. One wrasse is still hiding, the other came out yesterday and was out making friends with everyone and picking at the rocks, active with no marks or odd behavior. This morning he was dead on the sand, unmarred/marked. These are the most recent additions, no one else as it stands has been affected. One gramma has a little white spot on its fin that showed up this morning, but no signs of abnormal behavior. Is it possible that these guys as rock pickers got ahold of some of the dying dinos and poisoned themselves? Or could they go into shock a day later even after acclimation if they were kept in a low nutrient system, as I've recently brought my nutrients way up (before they got in)? Keep in mind I have blennies that pick all day, and several other mandarins that also pick constantly. And all fish in the tank have been acclimated the exact same way. I've bought 98% of all my livestock through one vendor, and this is the first time I've had something die within 48 hours of going in the tank, and with no obvious sign of illness or aggression.

Thoughts?

 

[Jekyl]

I'm guessing these fish were shipped? Can you detail your acclimation process?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Wish it was a good morning all, I just received a delivery Friday morning/early afternoon. 4 fish were ordered, a medium mandarin, small spotted mandarin, and 2 ornate wrasse. Everyone was fine and active in the bag (as active as they can be in a confined space). When they got in the tank, of course everyone went to hide. The little green is doing good, the medium male was good for all of Friday, then dead unmarred/marked in the corner Saturday morning. One wrasse is still hiding, the other came out yesterday and was out making friends with everyone and picking at the rocks, active with no marks or odd behavior. This morning he was dead on the sand, unmarred/marked. These are the most recent additions, no one else as it stands has been affected. One gramma has a little white spot on its fin that showed up this morning, but no signs of abnormal behavior. Is it possible that these guys as rock pickers got ahold of some of the dying dinos and poisoned themselves? Or could they go into shock a day later even after acclimation if they were kept in a low nutrient system, as I've recently brought my nutrients way up (before they got in)? Keep in mind I have blennies that pick all day, and several other mandarins that also pick constantly. And all fish in the tank have been acclimated the exact same way. I've bought 98% of all my livestock through one vendor, and this is the first time I've had something die within 48 hours of going in the tank, and with no obvious sign of illness or aggression.

Thoughts?

Rapid death after arrival of shipped fish is either an acclimation problem or poor quality fish or a severe water quality problem in your tank.

First off - what was the salinity of the fish’s bag water compared to your tank?

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Rapid death after arrival of shipped fish is either an acclimation problem or poor quality fish or a severe water quality problem in your tank.

First off - what was the salinity of the fish’s bag water compared to your tank?

These guys came in around 1.022-23, I hover at 1.025 normally. They all were active in the bags, as they always do with this vendor. I did notice the little spotted green was rather thin. I take 40 minutes - 1 hour generally to acclimate, depending on the fish/coral and how it behaves during that time. They get temp acclimated for 10-15 minutes, then they get small amounts of tank water added every 5 minutes, sometimes 10 for corals because I've had those guys shipped at 1.033 which is a much bigger swing. They then get added with lights out, and lights typically remain out for an hour to let them hide. I'm less concerned about them getting mobbed by the locals because the most aggressive fish I currently have is my one larger blenny, and with every fish addition he gets more and more chill, as his main target made friends with everyone and created a little fish gang. Like a neighborhood welcoming committee. After that hour lights are back on and everyone is fed lunch. Wrasse was munching away almost immediately.

 

[Jekyl]

This might be your problem here. When shipped the water can become toxic as soon as air is introduced. If you drip acclimated into the shipping water the ammonia levels likely became toxic.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

This might be your problem here. When shipped the water can become toxic as soon as air is introduced. If you drip acclimated into the shipping water the ammonia levels likely became toxic.

But what's the alternative? I didn't think I could just drop him straight in the tank. Every other fish has had it done this way, and not one showed any signs of added stress while in the bag, or in the tank for the first day.

 

[Jekyl]

But what's the alternative? I didn't think I could just drop him straight in the tank. Every other fish has had it done this way, and not one showed any signs of added stress while in the bag, or in the tank for the first day.

Jay would be better at explaining this than I would. The reason for this is that the ammonia that accumulated in the bag during shipping remains trapped and safe when the ph remains low. Once air is introduced the ph rises and causes the ammonia to become toxic.

I believe the best route is to match salinity and ph of the shipped water and transfer the fish immediately. Like I said though, let Jay or someone more knowledgeable than I detail it a little better.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Jay would be better at explaining this than I would. The reason for this is that the ammonia that accumulated in the bag during shipping remains trapped and safe when the ph remains low. Once air is introduced the ph rises and causes the ammonia to become toxic.

I believe the best route is to match salinity and ph of the shipped water and transfer the fish immediately. Like I said though, let Jay or someone more knowledgeable than I detail it a little better.

I understand the concept, makes sense. I'm just not sure how else you match the salinity other that adding water slowly and removing some as it gets too full until they match. That's how I do it, and how every other fish, save 1 garden eel that jumped into the tank halfway through his acclimation and is doing great to this day, has been acclimated.

Any chance phosphates higher than they were in their previous tank could cause shock like this? Been raising nitrate and phosphate from a 0/0 reading trying to fight dinos.

 

[Uncle99]

But what's the alternative? I didn't think I could just drop him straight in the tank. Every other fish has had it done this way, and not one showed any signs of added stress while in the bag, or in the tank for the first day.

First is the temp match in the bag unopened.
Soon as opened, (take a salinity read) they come out of that water into new water of the same temp but matching the bags salinity or less.

If the bag salinity was higher than your DT, it’s ok to go straight in (assuming your not QT in). But if the bag salinity is lower than DT then I only raise the salinity upwards at a rate of .001 per day. Many fish are maintained at 1.020 ish, so a jump in salinity takes time for the fish to acclimatize to higher salinity, which appears to cause respiratory struggles, more in some fish than others.

I keep a small 10g (dry mostly) but for just this purpose, and this allows me to control the salinity increase for whatever period I want, as well as begin feedings of foods.

I’ve noted with this method, even delicates like copper bands when they go into DT, do not hide, pant and start swimming and feeding right away.

I have found having the small intermediate glass box a huge benefit when working with shipped fish.

They usually are ready within 2-3 days, but with the exception of mandarins, the rest go about 30 days before entering the DT.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

First is the temp match in the bag unopened.
Soon as opened, (take a salinity read) they come out of that water into new water of the same temp but matching the bags salinity or less.

If the bag salinity was higher than your DT, it’s ok to go straight in (assuming your not QT in). But if the bag salinity is lower than DT then I only raise the salinity upwards at a rate of .001 per day. Many fish are maintained at 1.020 ish, so a jump in salinity takes time for the fish to acclimatize to higher salinity, which appears to cause respiratory struggles, more in some fish than others.

I keep a small 10g (dry mostly) but for just this purpose, and this allows me to control the salinity increase for whatever period I want, as well as begin feedings of foods.

I’ve noted with this method, even delicates like copper bands when they go into DT, do not hide, pant and start swimming and feeding right away.

That makes sense, but why would so many people push acclimation in the bag? And why did no other fish have this problem? Maybe that batch was just not good? It was a little cool, mid 60s to low 70s this week here, but it might not have been where it shipped from in LA area, so maybe heat/cold played a role too? Can we at least rule out shock from lights being on, or does that apply more to coral?

 

[Jekyl]

That makes sense, but why would so many people push acclimation in the bag? And why did no other fish have this problem? Maybe that batch was just not good? It was a little cool, mid 60s to low 70s this week here, but it might not have been where it shipped from in LA area, so maybe heat/cold played a role too? Can we at least rule out shock from lights being on, or does that apply more to coral?

Bag acclimation I think is more for the local fish store purchases. The longer the shipping, this higher the ammonia risk.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Bag acclimation I think is more for the local fish store purchases. The longer the shipping, this higher the ammonia risk.

I thought vendors typically hold food for a couple days to minimize that risk?

 

[ga2040]

When opening the bag ph raises, ammonia becomes more toxic.
Skipping drip acclimation could have helped.

 

[W31Olds]

Bag acclimation is fine for fish you purchase from an LFS as they haven't been in transit for long. I usually e-mail or check an online vendor's website to see what they maintain and ship their livestock at. Since I always QT I setup the salinity of my QT to match and then just do a 30 min or so for temp acclimation and in they go. Usually swimming around right away. The salinity match between the Qt Tank and the Bag is not super critical, but if I difference of more than say .002 lower in the bag I would adjust my QT of holding Tank. In your case these were probably small fish and shipped in small bags? Ammonia during the acclimation may have been a bigger factor than the salinity increase.

 

[W31Olds]

The online vendor I get most of my fish from doesn't hold anything but does ship in large bags with a lot of water. The Mandarin I recently received from was delayed 1 extra day and was thin and tiny. I thought for sure she was a gonner but pulled through and is doing great. The shipping bag probably had close to a Qt. of water for a 1.5" fish.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Bag acclimation is fine for fish you purchase from an LFS as they haven't been in transit for long. I usually e-mail or check an online vendor's website to see what they maintain and ship their livestock at. Since I always QT I setup the salinity of my QT to match and then just do a 30 min or so for temp acclimation and in they go. Usually swimming around right away. The salinity match between the Qt Tank and the Bag is not super critical, but if I difference of more than say .002 lower in the bag I would adjust my QT of holding Tank. In your case these were probably small fish and shipped in small bags? Ammonia during the acclimation may have been a bigger factor than the salinity increase.

So either make a batch of fresh saltwater to the bag salinity or if the numbers are close, especially if the bag is higher just add them after a temp acclimation? Does coral follow the same rule, even if the bag is 1.033 to the DT 1.025?

 

[Wandering Albatross]

The online vendor I get most of my fish from doesn't hold anything but does ship in large bags with a lot of water. The Mandarin I recently received from was delayed 1 extra day and was thin and tiny. I thought for sure she was a gonner but pulled through and is doing great. The shipping bag probably had close to a Qt. of water for a 1.5" fish.

Mine don't ship in that much water generally, except the eels because they were so long.

 

[W31Olds]

Good question for acclimation of inverts. They are supposed to be shipped at 1.025 maybe 1.026 because a good vendor should have separate copper free systems for inverts.

 

[W31Olds]

Yea, I have had orders from other vendors that shipped small fish in small bags.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Good question for acclimation of inverts. They are supposed to be shipped at 1.025 maybe 1.026 because a good vendor should have separate copper free systems for inverts.

Vendor said corals were kept in a dedicated system. 1.033 did seem rather high regardless...