Rapid Unexplained Deaths in New Fish

[Jekyl]

@Randy Holmes-Farley mind giving us a breakdown here of how Ph effects trapped ammonia?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Wish it was a good morning all, I just received a delivery Friday morning/early afternoon. 4 fish were ordered, a medium mandarin, small spotted mandarin, and 2 ornate wrasse. Everyone was fine and active in the bag (as active as they can be in a confined space). When they got in the tank, of course everyone went to hide. The little green is doing good, the medium male was good for all of Friday, then dead unmarred/marked in the corner Saturday morning. One wrasse is still hiding, the other came out yesterday and was out making friends with everyone and picking at the rocks, active with no marks or odd behavior. This morning he was dead on the sand, unmarred/marked. These are the most recent additions, no one else as it stands has been affected. One gramma has a little white spot on its fin that showed up this morning, but no signs of abnormal behavior. Is it possible that these guys as rock pickers got ahold of some of the dying dinos and poisoned themselves? Or could they go into shock a day later even after acclimation if they were kept in a low nutrient system, as I've recently brought my nutrients way up (before they got in)? Keep in mind I have blennies that pick all day, and several other mandarins that also pick constantly. And all fish in the tank have been acclimated the exact same way. I've bought 98% of all my livestock through one vendor, and this is the first time I've had something die within 48 hours of going in the tank, and with no obvious sign of illness or aggression.

Thoughts?

Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia which lowers the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the ammonia toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia which then raises the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish.
You want to add water until salinity matches that of intended tank and even the ph. This many fish added can have impact on bioload and with exception of mandarin should have been placed into quarantine and not into a tank with dinos which can release low level toxins

 

[vetteguy53081]

@Randy Holmes-Farley mind giving us a breakdown here of how Ph effects trapped ammonia?

Higher pH levels above 7.0- 7.8 increase the proportion of unionized ammonia in whereas lower has little impact. Generally, ammonia will impact PH

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia which lowers the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the ammonia toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia which then raises the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish.
You want to add water until salinity matches that of intended tank and even the ph. This many fish added can have impact on bioload and with exception of mandarin should have been placed into quarantine and not into a tank with dinos which can release low level toxins

4 fairly small fish can that drastically effect a 150g + 40g sump system?

 

[vetteguy53081]

4 fairly small fish can that drastically effect a 150g + 40g sump system?

Im referring to deaths and impact thereafter but not drastic.

 

[MnFish1]

I understand the concept, makes sense. I'm just not sure how else you match the salinity other that adding water slowly and removing some as it gets too full until they match. That's how I do it, and how every other fish, save 1 garden eel that jumped into the tank halfway through his acclimation and is doing great to this day, has been acclimated.

Any chance phosphates higher than they were in their previous tank could cause shock like this? Been raising nitrate and phosphate from a 0/0 reading trying to fight dinos.

What you do is you have a hospital tank with the same salinity as the bag of fish, then you add the fish to that - and slowly increase the salinity (often during quarantine0

 

[MnFish1]

@Randy Holmes-Farley mind giving us a breakdown here of how Ph effects trapped ammonia?

When fish are in a bag - they release CO2 - which lowers pH - they also create ammonia - which becomes less toxic as pH drops. (pH drops with higher CO2. And it's quite a big change that can happen depending on the ammonia in the bag and the size of the fish.

When the pH is low More ammonia is in the form of NH4 - which is less toxic. As pH increases More NH4 is turned into NH3 - which is toxic.

PS - I answered because Randy has stated he does not respond to tags.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

These guys came in around 1.022-23, I hover at 1.025 normally. They all were active in the bags, as they always do with this vendor. I did notice the little spotted green was rather thin. I take 40 minutes - 1 hour generally to acclimate, depending on the fish/coral and how it behaves during that time. They get temp acclimated for 10-15 minutes, then they get small amounts of tank water added every 5 minutes, sometimes 10 for corals because I've had those guys shipped at 1.033 which is a much bigger swing. They then get added with lights out, and lights typically remain out for an hour to let them hide. I'm less concerned about them getting mobbed by the locals because the most aggressive fish I currently have is my one larger blenny, and with every fish addition he gets more and more chill, as his main target made friends with everyone and created a little fish gang. Like a neighborhood welcoming committee. After that hour lights are back on and everyone is fed lunch. Wrasse was munching away almost immediately.

I don’t see any huge red flags in you acclimation method. Drip acclimation of shipped fish can sometimes be an issue. Here is my article on acclimation:

Acclimation Methods

Acclimating Animals to Aquariums Jay F. Hemdal c.2020 Introduction to acclimation techniques Most beginning aquarists hear that they must “acclimate” any new animals they add to their aquarium. Acclimation (sometimes termed...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Uncle99]

That makes sense, but why would so many people push acclimation in the bag? And why did no other fish have this problem? Maybe that batch was just not good? It was a little cool, mid 60s to low 70s this week here, but it might not have been where it shipped from in LA area, so maybe heat/cold played a role too? Can we at least rule out shock from lights being on, or does that apply more to coral?

Lights can startle maybe at times.
Some polyps may shy quickly.
None is normally fatal, just makes them unhappy.

You can do it in the bag, but, your acclimatize the fish in their “toilet” adding stress. The ammonia built up in the bag during transit, only becomes a problem when you open it. At this point the ammonias toxicity is on the increase, so, it’s better to get them out of the toilet IMM.

In some cases, the fish are so resilient, it doesn’t matter much, or that the salinity were similar to start.

But I apply the same rules to each fish. In the end, not are they already well well acclimatized to my DT water chemistry, but eating all foods presented in an agreesive manner….aka the Copperband and a few others.

It’s just easier for me to transit fish from sale to DT this way and not lose stuff. Can’t afford to do that.

 

[petcellar]

Bag acclimation I think is more for the local fish store purchases. The longer the shipping, this higher the ammonia risk.

I agree with this statement 100 percent.

I stopped drip type acclimation for shipped fish over 20 years ago just for this reason.

If the fish have only been in the bag for a short trip it may be more useful.

 

[Mandarinkeeper]

If acclimation is a necessity then add prime to the water that the fish arrives in so as to dilute the amount of toxins

 

[FishLvR]

Fellas, I have been dirty dipping fish for years with no issues. Just set an alarm for 15 minutes pour a little tank water in bag until bag is full then YOLO!

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Fellas, I have been dirty dipping fish for years with no issues. Just set an alarm for 15 minutes pour a little tank water in bag until bag is full then YOLO!

Do you add all the bag water to the tank too? I’ve heard a few people do that, seems to depend on where they got the fish and how much water it was.

 

[Jekyl]

Do you add all the bag water to the tank too? I’ve heard a few people do that, seems to depend on where they got the fish and how much water it was.

Never add bag water to your tank.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Never add bag water to your tank.

I know that’s the common consensus yes, and I don’t, I just wanted to know if Devisissy ever did, considering the claim of ‘dirty dipping’.