Reasons for Doing Water Changes?

[MnFish1]

Several salts mix well and consistently - if done per instructions - I use Brightwell Neomarine

 

[Lasse]

What I´m trying to say is that relay on WC as a method has a higher uncertainty factor than measuring with help of ICP and adding or removing different molecules. Sometimes, however, individual values will be so wrong that you have to make a change of water and start over from the beginning

I´m not talking about mixing the salt into the water - I´m talking about the difficulties to make a dry salt that is so well mixed that every gram of it has the same composition (and right concentrations) of different molecules.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

What I´m trying to say is that relay on WC as a method has a higher uncertainty factor than measuring with help of ICP and adding or removing different molecules. Sometimes, however, individual values will be so wrong that you have to make a change of water and start over from the beginning

I´m not talking about mixing the salt into the water - I´m talking about the difficulties to make a dry salt that is so well mixed that every gram of it has the same composition (and right concentrations) of different molecules.

Sincerely Lasse

Hi Lasse - I agree everything we do has an uncertainty. I guess though - (just me personally) as a stubborn Norwegian - I will say that I trust my salt company - more than I trust the multiple solutions that need to be made up in the triton method. I am not sure that if one uses a salt that does not contain some of the things you discuss in ppb. Im not sure its a problem - it hasn't be for me in any case I do water changes maybe every 2 weeks - about 40 gallons. what I see is more open corals, if anything. I mix it >24 hours and its the same temperature. Its working - so I'm not sure I should change it.

I will say this - If I have to rely on one manufactured product's 'specs' as compared to several products, statistics would suggest that using multiple products (bottles of 'stuff') to maintain something is more risky. But - again Im Norwegian.

 

[MnFish1]

And btw - just out of curiosity - I think I will buy a couple tests - to see where 'my tank is'. However, as I do it, I think of PT Barnum. Funny thing - most of the results of the testing I have seen here are that the major things are 'all ok' as expected - but there are these minor elements that are way off. And no one seems to know - what it means.

 

[Scott Campbell]

What I´m trying to say is that relay on WC as a method has a higher uncertainty factor than measuring with help of ICP and adding or removing different molecules. Sometimes, however, individual values will be so wrong that you have to make a change of water and start over from the beginning

I´m not talking about mixing the salt into the water - I´m talking about the difficulties to make a dry salt that is so well mixed that every gram of it has the same composition (and right concentrations) of different molecules.

Sincerely Lasse

You make a very compelling point. But as someone who actually sells chemicals like Zinc and Vanadium to pottery folks, I have refrained from trying to mix my own dosing solutions because of the same challenges salt manufacturers face. The amounts are so small that the margin of error becomes significant. My question being - how precise do you think those tiny Triton jars really are? Aren't we dealing with measurement issues either way?

 

[dz6t]

I found an old picture, the filter was a lot cleaner three years ago
I have no idea what the brand on this one is, it's been here for at least 15 years I think. But just search for sand pressure filter or pool filter then you will find a lot. They are not that expensive(compared to all other equipment for coral tank..).
The pump on the picture is connected to the filter. About 6000L/h I think.

Edit. Now I have started a tread for this tank. Please feel free to ask more there. It's in the section for large tanks.
/ David

Thank you very much.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

I read the whole thread whilst enjoying my almost 5 years old tank (close to 4 years without water changes). I would say it is not easy initially (nothing is easy in reefing initially anyway ), but through the years you will learn most of the things that triggers the question "why should I do water changes?". My advise is, don't do it (no WC) if your tank is young or if you don't have a clue how to eliminate water changes. I won't call myself a experienced reefer, or scientist etc, but personally I know my tank well enough (take note when I said my tank) that water changes is no longer necessary.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

The WC as a method is built on an assumption that you always get a perfect salt – with all ingredients blended 100 % right. Is this possible?

Let us look at some more or less important substances. I have chose zinc, lithium, iodine, strontium and potassium. In a perfect saltwater - zink has a concentration of 4 microgram’s/l (4 ppb), lithium 200 microgram´s/l (200 ppb), Iodine 60 microgram´s/l (60 ppb), strontium 8 mg/l (8 ppm) and potassium 400 mg/l (400 ppm). In my calculation I have calculated that it needs 39 grams of our salt mix to reach around 34.8 PSU (1.026). Let us say the salt producer makes batches of 1 metric ton every time. The question is now – how much of our 5 compounds should he/she add to this 1 ton batch?

Zink – he/she need to add 0.1 gram´s

Lithium - he/she need to add 5.12 gram´s

Iodine - he/she need to add 1.5 gram´s

Strontium - he/she need to add 205 gram´s

Potassium - he/she need to add 10256 gram´s – little more than 10 kg

Next step is to blend this ton in a way that each kilo of it content 0.0001 g Zink, 0.0051 g Lithium, 0.0015 g Iodine, 0.205 g Strontium and 10.2 g Potassium.

Is this possible? IMO even to blend so well that each kilograms content 10.2 g Potassium is difficult. – The other compounds I have mentioned here – its ridiculous to believe that they will be evenly mixed in big batches.

Is it possible to blend a perfect salt – yes but it has to be in very small batches and with very good scales and the whole batch has to been used at the same time – but the price will be high – very high

Its late in the evening (Swedish time) so if I have done some miscalculation please let me know

The reason why I have left the WC as a method is not because that I´m lazy - the reason is pure mathematic

Sincerely Lasse

I have thought of these as well when my brain is still ticking with the non-WC question. Your tank is one of the many outstanding non-WC tanks I have seen across the board. Nice!!!!

 

[dz6t]

However, as I do it, I think of PT Barnum.

Lol,
Well, it relies on the technicians to correctly calibrate the ICP-OES and maintain it.
For this type of analytical instrument, if you feed it a sample, it will give you data.

 

[MnFish1]

Lol,
Well, it relies on the technicians to correctly calibrate the ICP-OES and maintain it.
For this type of analytical instrument, if you feed it a sample, it will give you data.

My point was - I am considering a test - that likely will be 'normal' and will cost me money.
If it is abnormal - (a sky high xxx level - an extremely low yyy level) - there will be no data as to what it means, where its from or whether its significant.
FWIW - all instruments have 'margins of error'. and Im not aware how triton choses their 'normal range'.
Also - check out a couple threads where they sent 3 tests to 3 places and got 3 fairly different results.

Like I said - even given the above 'concerns' - I will probably buy a test - PT Barnum.

 

[TbyZ]

I´m not talking about mixing the salt into the water - I´m talking about the difficulties to make a dry salt that is so well mixed that every gram of it has the same composition (and right concentrations) of different molecules.

Sincerely Lasse

I understand exactly what you getting at Lasse. Its very simple.

I believe that dosing aquaforest address this exact possible problem.
For example; I can make up a very small solution of calcium, say one litre, using calcium chloride powder & RODI water. To that I can add 5ml, (or more or less if I need) of the ready made liquid solution Components Strong A, which is strontium and barium, & 5ml of the Components Strong B - heavy metals. Unlike a salt mix, I always know how much of these elements I'm adding to the tank, & I can adjust them as needed.
Same goes for Components Strong C, which is iodide and fluoride, & that liquid solution is added to the sodium bicarbonate solution, & then there's Components Strong K which is potassium, & that is added to the non sodium chloride reef salts solution.

 

[MnFish1]

I understand exactly what you getting at Lasse. Its very simple.

I believe that dosing aquaforest address this exact possible problem.
For example; I can make up a very small solution of calcium, say one litre, using calcium chloride powder & RODI water. To that I can add 5ml, (or more or less if I need) of the ready made liquid solution Components Strong A, which is strontium and barium, & 5ml of the Components Strong B - heavy metals. Unlike a salt mix, I always know how much of these elements I'm adding to the tank, & I can adjust them as needed.
Same goes for Components Strong C, which is iodide and fluoride, & that liquid solution is added to the sodium bicarbonate solution, & then there's Components Strong K which is potassium, & that is added to the non sodium chloride reef salts solution.

Every time a solution is mixed the chance of an error increases.

 

[TbyZ]

"Dr. Haas, et al, found the only times DOC dropped to zero around reefs was in highly eutrophic systems completely taken over by algae and heterotrophic bacteria".

I hadn't considered the usefulness of algae beyond nitrogen & phosphate removal. Obviously very efficent at removing apparently all DOCs.

Must be why Triton utilise a macro refugium.

 

[Lasse]

Hi folks

As someone state - its works for MY tank. The worst think that could happen is that people start to change their way of managing their tanks. If it all works as it should - do NOT change your way of managing your tank because someone has write something on a forum. However – if you run in problems with your way to handle your tank – when it could be a good idea to try something new.

And of cause – everything can go wrong – remember Murphys law – In Sweden we have 8 laws of Murphy – for MnFish1

And - @MnFish1 I´m not sure you should send in a test – you can easily get “griller i hodet”

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Reef Monkie]

Since I don't have a reef aquarium, yet, I am not invested in any method at this time and I find this discussion interesting. It does seem obvious though that testing and knowing what you are adding/removing instead of just trusting it works makes sense.

One thing I do question that has come up in this discussion is the statements that water changes are cheaper than dosing via balling or another method. From what I understand most people that do water changes still have to dose 2 part or some other method so from a cost comparison point of view to be fair one would have to compare the cost of balling/triton on its own versus 2 part and water changes and not just the cost of salt and RO/DI, or am I missing something?

 

[TbyZ]

Since I don't have a reef aquarium, yet, I am not invested in any method at this time and I find this discussion interesting. It does seem obvious though that testing and knowing what you are adding/removing instead of just trusting it works makes sense.

One thing I do question that has come up in this discussion is the statements that water changes are cheaper than dosing via balling or another method. From what I understand most people that do water changes still have to dose 2 part or some other method so from a cost comparison point of view to be fair one would have to compare the cost of balling/triton on its own versus 2 part and water changes and not just the cost of salt and RO/DI, or am I missing something?

You're right. You can dose however you like - kalkwasser, two part, balling or calcium reactor. Water changes have nothing to do with it other than also dosing trace elements, & many people dose those as well as doing regular water changes. Dosing is about maintaining the level of elements that are taken up by the tank inhabitants, & regular water changes are done to take some water out so you can put some other water back in?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"Dr. Haas, et al, found the only times DOC dropped to zero around reefs was in highly eutrophic systems completely taken over by algae and heterotrophic bacteria".

I hadn't considered the usefulness of algae beyond nitrogen & phosphate removal. Obviously very efficent at removing apparently all DOCs.

Must be why Triton utilise a macro refugium.

It's not the algae that remove DOC. It's, by definition, the heteroterophic bacteria.

 

[CNDReef]

It's not the algae that remove DOC. It's, by definition, the heteroterophic bacteria.

So how do you create that bacteria?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So how do you create that bacteria?

They are always present. I'm not sure there's anything you can do to promote their growth that you would not be already doing for a reef tank, except possibly providing more surface area for them to grow.

 

[TbyZ]

Here's a video of Ricos Reef from Tidal Gardens

Acros, sps, LPS, heaps of fish; amazing tank.
Filtration is a macroalgae fuge & a very large skimmer. No activated carbon or GFO.
Calcium reactor, and suppliments extra trace elements through feeding. Thats it.
Zero water changes