Red Sea Mature Pro

[meta]

Hi, I'm currently on my 16th cycle day -- but desperately could use some advice:

Impulsively I bought the Red Sea Mature Pro kit, without realizing they expect you to start with live rock.
After some Googling I found out it would be still possible, but alas, with a certain delay.

Spoiler: Parameters

For the most part of the journey, ammonia has remained steady at 3.
With it recently (1 day ago) spiking to 5, despite the last addition of the ammonia variant (and bacteria) being 6 days ago.

NO2 and NO3 are slowly making process.

I didn't really test P04 along the way, but after reading that 0 phosphate could stall the cycle, today I did. Which still is < 0.02 (or basically 0) according to the test.
Could this be due to carbon dosing which the kit requires?

Originally I used 10 kg dry rock + 1 kg Real Reef Rock (synthetic)
Later on Aquaforest Bio Sand was used (inc. nit bacteria)
Later, another 1 kg dry + 1 kg RRR was used.

4 days ago I had to empty the tank, due to moving the tank to a new stand. Therefore, the rocks were dryish for circa 2 hours.
We did attempt to keep them moist with a spray bottle though.

Testing wise I am using the JBL test kit.
And per Red Sea's instructions, a skimmer is being used.


To be honest, I'm not really sure what's happening ammonia wise.
Could it be a faulty test?
Another thought -> before I had the Red Sea kit, I threw in some fish food. Not a lot though.
Could that finally be causing the ammonia to spike?


Update: one day later, the ammonia at back at 5.

 

[prdubois]

Welcome! Take your time and dont rush, Nothing good happens fast in this hobby

 

[meta]

Welcome! Take your time and dont try Nothing good happens fast in this hobby

Thanks! Don't try what btw?
And to clarify, I'm not complaining or anything regarding the duration.
I'm just wondering what could be the reason for the ammonia to rise --
if the P04 is problematic to the cycle.

 

[prdubois]

"don't Rush"

 

[brandon429]

I am 100% sure this cycle is done.

next steps, do a water change for new water of whatever % you are willing to do for a nice fresh start. add some life to the tank you originally had planned to add when the cycle is done. if you'll begin with just a typical normal starting bioload you'll be fine please update us with pics not of param readouts, but of the life in the tank.

(your stated params aren't accepted as accurate they're approximates, the ammonia test needs TAN conversion to be correct etc but we don't need any of those details we need the ones listed below)

you can tell these predictions are not wildly off base compared to the rest I've littered about the web -met the timeframe of the ammonia line on a cycling chart, the only param that matters.

-met the timeframe on the dates on the label of the actual bottle bac.


-has provided feed in excess to what nature would provide for free, at day 16

-dosed multi sources of bac, beyond what nature would provide free from the air and water prep by day 16

-has surface area/rocks and sand for attachment

-tests already indicate ammonia movement down. I have about 200 pages of threads showing cycled tanks off just ammonia going down alone, regardless of the other boosters above since bottle bac is so strong.

 

[brandon429]

after the water change and when some life is in the tank eating/making waste and it doesn't cloud up or crash overnite this is the exact thread where we collect your type of cycle, I'll update here.

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

non digital ammonia test kit readings (api, Red Sea, nyos, seachem badges) make you think you aren’t cycled when indeed you are if you owned a $200 expensive seneye meter, you’d never be doubting your cycle status. since .01% of the reefing population owns these, we need a way to help the...

www.reef2reef.com

in every cycle there we disbelieve the original stated ammonia level and instead consider either the time underwater involved if they're not ammonia testing, or we look for dynamic movement if they are. % of bad cycle calls there, not fer pages.

 

[Azedenkae]

Hi, I'm currently on my 16th cycle day -- but desperately could use some advice:

Impulsively I bought the Red Sea Mature Pro kit, without realizing they expect you to start with live rock.
After some Googling I found out it would be still possible, but alas, with a certain delay.

Spoiler: Parameters

For the most part of the journey, ammonia has remained steady at 3.
With it recently (1 day ago) spiking to 5, despite the last addition of the ammonia variant (and bacteria) being 6 days ago.

NO2 and NO3 are slowly making process.

I didn't really test P04 along the way, but after reading that 0 phosphate could stall the cycle, today I did. Which still is < 0.02 (or basically 0) according to the test.
Could this be due to carbon dosing which the kit requires?

Originally I used 10 kg dry rock + 1 kg Real Reef Rock (synthetic)
Later on Aquaforest Bio Sand was used (inc. nit bacteria)
Later, another 1 kg dry + 1 kg RRR was used.

4 days ago I had to empty the tank, due to moving the tank to a new stand. Therefore, the rocks were dryish for circa 2 hours.
We did attempt to keep them moist with a spray bottle though.

Testing wise I am using the JBL test kit.
And per Red Sea's instructions, a skimmer is being used.


To be honest, I'm not really sure what's happening ammonia wise.
Could it be a faulty test?
Another thought -> before I had the Red Sea kit, I threw in some fish food. Not a lot though.
Could that finally be causing the ammonia to spike?


Update: one day later, the ammonia at back at 5.

So firstly, I don't believe in 'go slow' or 'patience' or 'wait it out' when there is some troubleshooting that can happen. That's not gonna be my suggestion, unless we arrive at it after the troubleshooting, not before.

So I am gonna try to actually help you. First thing I am gonna say is, it seems like there is indeed nitrification going on. I have two questions though:

1. Are you able to very clearly distinguish between 3 and 5ppm ammonia? I notice there are two other bumps to 5ppm aside from today, so it could be that the reading is somewhere between 3 and 5 ppm, but maybe just under different lights sometimes it might read higher or lower.

2. You said you had to empty the tank 4 days ago, did you fill it up with the same water again, or new water?

 

[brandon429]

nice job on the spritzing too ha nice one. the bac would have survived without it, we have a test for that too lol I think the fellow had his rock out one month but key: it was sitting in a closet not outside. his rock moved ammonia down when he hydrated it and tested it, its in our microbiology of cycling thread.

you spritzing sw on those rocks for sure carried it all just fine.

I have never seen in 22 years of daily online reefing for about 5 hours a day a single cycle ever retrograde or lose ability. across all the insults we do to rocks online, and watching for those post patterns/ haven't seen a cycle undo. not ever, not one.

 

[meta]

I am 100% sure this cycle is done.

next steps, do a water change for new water of whatever % you are willing to do for a nice fresh start. add some life to the tank you originally had planned to add when the cycle is done. if you'll begin with just a typical normal starting bioload you'll be fine please update us with pics not of param readouts, but of the life in the tank.

(your stated params aren't accepted as accurate they're approximates, the ammonia test needs TAN conversion to be correct etc but we don't need any of those details we need the ones listed below)

you can tell these predictions are not wildly off base compared to the rest I've littered about the web -met the timeframe of the ammonia line on a cycling chart, the only param that matters.

-met the timeframe on the dates on the label of the actual bottle bac.


-has provided feed in excess to what nature would provide for free, at day 16

-dosed multi sources of bac, beyond what nature would provide free from the air and water prep by day 16

-has surface area/rocks and sand for attachment

-tests already indicate ammonia movement down. I have about 200 pages of threads showing cycled tanks off just ammonia going down alone, regardless of the other boosters above since bottle bac is so strong.

Thanks for taking your time!
I'm stoked to read this, a step closer to the first fishie(s) is excellent news!

"-tests already indicate ammonia movement down. I have about 200 pages of threads showing cycled tanks off just ammonia going down alone, regardless of the other boosters above since bottle bac is so strong."

"-met the timeframe of the ammonia line on a cycling chart, the only param that matters.

I'm not sure I completely understand you, testing wise the ammonia levels haven't really gone down yet. They kinda plateaued. Or do you mean due to N02/3 being present?

So firstly, I don't believe in 'go slow' or 'patience' or 'wait it out' when there is some troubleshooting that can happen. That's not gonna be my suggestion, unless we arrive at it after the troubleshooting, not before.

So I am gonna try to actually help you. First thing I am gonna say is, it seems like there is indeed nitrification going on. I have two questions though:

1. Are you able to very clearly distinguish between 3 and 5ppm ammonia? I notice there are two other bumps to 5ppm aside from today, so it could be that the reading is somewhere between 3 and 5 ppm, but maybe just under different lights sometimes it might read higher or lower.

2. You said you had to empty the tank 4 days ago, did you fill it up with the same water again, or new water?

To you too, thanks for taking your time and willingness to help!

Regarding 1: yes, for the most part that is. At the beginning we did the tests at night though, and due to the low light levels, we had to improv and use our cell phone's flashlights. Later on, the tests were done in daylight, and the results were mostly clear. The 3 between the 5's was actually more of a 4 (between the 2x colours), but my girlfriend opted we avoid that from now on.

2: the same water had been used. Filled it up in buckets & jerry-cans.

nice job on the spritzing too ha nice one. the bac would have survived without it, we have a test for that too lol I think the fellow had his rock out one month but key: it was sitting in a closet not outside. his rock moved ammonia down when he hydrated it and tested it, its in our microbiology of cycling thread.

you spritzing sw on those rocks for sure carried it all just fine.

I have never seen in 22 years of daily online reefing for about 5 hours a day a single cycle ever retrograde or lose ability. across all the insults we do to rocks online, and watching for those post patterns/ haven't seen a cycle undo. not ever, not one.

Glad to hear that haha, was kinda iffed that alone would have caused the issues.

 

[Azedenkae]

To you too, thanks for taking your time and willingness to help!

Regarding 1: yes, for the most part that is. At the beginning we did the tests at night though, and due to the low light levels, we had to improv and use our cell phone's flashlights. Later on, the tests were done in daylight, and the results were mostly clear. The 3 between the 5's was actually more of a 4 (between the 2x colours), but my girlfriend opted we avoid that from now on.

2: the same water had been used. Filled it up in buckets & jerry-cans.

Coolio! Yeah all good. So personally, I reckon your ammonia probably have remained around the same area since the start, and the slight variations are probably just erroneous - i.e. like you said, probably around 4ppm between the two colours, but not too clear. So yeah, no ammonia spike or anything. A bit of fish food won't add 2ppm to your readings, and probably not so suddenly.

Presuming the kits are actually not faulty or anything like that, to me it looks like there is some ammonia oxidation going on, and maybe nitrite oxidation too, but the latter we probably can't know for sure. A lot of nitrate tests are affected by nitrite (i.e. the nitrate test actually converts some nitrate to nitrite, then reads the nitrite, so if there is already nitrite there is a false reading).

Imo there is still a bit to go before your tank is cycled. It may not be too long though - the nitrifiers do increase in numbers exponentially after all.

Personally by the way, I would stop with the carbon dosing. It is to reduce nitrates and phosphates, but that is not important right now, and the microbes that are utilizing all that carbon may be competing against your nitrifiers. Not for carbon or nitrate, but phosphate.

 

[meta]

Coolio! Yeah all good. So personally, I reckon your ammonia probably have remained around the same area since the start, and the slight variations are probably just erroneous - i.e. like you said, probably around 4ppm between the two colours, but not too clear. So yeah, no ammonia spike or anything. A bit of fish food won't add 2ppm to your readings, and probably not so suddenly.

Presuming the kits are actually not faulty or anything like that, to me it looks like there is some ammonia oxidation going on, and maybe nitrite oxidation too, but the latter we probably can't know for sure. A lot of nitrate tests are affected by nitrite (i.e. the nitrate test actually converts some nitrate to nitrite, then reads the nitrite, so if there is already nitrite there is a false reading).

Imo there is still a bit to go before your tank is cycled. It may not be too long though - the nitrifiers do increase in numbers exponentially after all.

Personally by the way, I would stop with the carbon dosing. It is to reduce nitrates and phosphates, but that is not important right now, and the microbes that are utilizing all that carbon may be competing against your nitrifiers. Not for carbon or nitrate, but phosphate.

Gotcha! Will stop the carbon (probably for the best that I shut down the skimmer too?)
As Brandon already suggested, would I still go with the big water change / adding first bioload in this case?

 

[brandon429]

above I thought I saw ammonia went down, but even if it didn't that still doesn't sway me. check out this fellow his ammonia read eight ppm and then the water change fixed everything and he had a reef:

100% Water Change

So in my previous thread, I had an ammonia issue that was out of hand. As suggested, I did a 100% WC and now i’m wondering when I should start adding fish back. If anyone has suggestions, let me know!

www.reef2reef.com

he didn't really have eight ppm to start, yours isn't as high as it reads now after tan conversion.

the water change is a nice streamliner.

two modes of cycling have emerged in the hobby:

1. must wait for all variations created initially to clear out of the wastewater and wait for 3x param testing to read 0/0/some nitrate.

2. any common mix approach will certainly cycle, we have totally unassisted reefs that self-cycled in sixty days, so these boosted ones are a stew brew of bacteria loving it. your tests may or may not agree. on the date from the label of bottle bac used / nearly all are ten days or less, change out all your water for known safe water. this is because we don't want to use testing any further, it causes panic. changing out the suspect water leaves a guaranteed filter base adhered all over the tank, the cycle will be done on the date the bottle bac said it would. we're banking on the fact that in a home with nonsterile assembly no reefer who inputs ammonia and liquid cycling bacteria is going to fail in that task of creating a suspension of bacteria. the only thing that would impress me is if they did fail.

 

[Azedenkae]

Gotcha! Will stop the carbon (probably for the best that I shut down the skimmer too?)
As Brandon already suggested, would I still go with the big water change / adding first bioload in this case?

Oh, I have Brandon on ignore so I don't know what he said.

I would not suggest either a big water change or adding anything yet though. I don't think your aquarium is cycled.

Skimmer can be off imo, at least until your aquarium is cycled.