RedSea Reefer 450 Reboot?

[cfendya]

Looking for some guidance here as I'm in that horrible spot where I just want to trash everything and start over or give up completely and exit the hobby.

I upgraded from a Reefer 250 back at the beginning of the year over to a brand new Reefer 450. All rock was moved over to the new system but I used new sand and all new water. The fish, anemones, and what coral I had survived but shortly after I moved, the algae issues began - bubble algae, followed by Dinos, then hair algae and now back to Dinos. I've done a lot trying to mitigate everything including adding UV, Vibrant, Reef Flux, etc and any success I was able to have seems to be short lived as I'm right back to having Dinos and it looks like hair algae is rearing it's ugly head now as well.

Parameters (<10 Nitrates, 0.03-0.06ph, CA 450, Magnesium 1400, Alk 8.1 - 8.5) have for the most part been where I think they need to be and having never had Dinos or hair algae in the previous tank, I'm at a loss as to where to go.

If I were to do a reboot, I'd plan on getting all new live rock as well as sand. I'd purchase LR opposed to the man made stuff (which is what I used before) as I've read some of the man made junk has been problematic for a variety of reasons. All LR would be cycled for a couple weeks in brute cans prior to adding to the tank.

My question is, am I right in thinking a reboot is the right thing now and if so, what have you done with your fish if you've too have gone through something as drastic like this before?

I don't have another tank and would love to keep my fish but really I'm not sure how best to go about this. I do have a friend where I could borrow a 40G but how do you handle filtration on something not drilled. I could pull the media filter balls from my sump to help but I think it'd take more to support them for something as large and time consuming as a tank reboot? Fish include - 2 clowns, 2 chromes, 1 med yellow tang, 1 med powder blue, 1 Christmas fairy wrasse, and 1 small flame angel.

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[Spare time]

If you have a lots of pests that can't be permanently eliminated that well (like bubble algae) then it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea. Its 100% up to you but theres no shame in doing it. Go with dry rock, cycle with bacteria and raw ammonia (nothing with phosphate) in the dark, etc. Make sure to keep chaning the water in the cycling tank so you don't get a build of of nitrate which can leach out of the rock over time. You can keep the fish in a large bin from home depot in the mean time if you'd like. Some hang on back filters fit well on these bins but make sure its strong enough for the amount of water you want.

 

[cfendya]

Thanks for the reply and suggestions. Is there a reason you suggest using dry rock vs LR especially if I plan on cycling it? I'd have to go back through and see if I can find the post, but somewhere I read dry rock has been problematic for a lot with algae and Dino issues.

 

[CasaReefer]

Well I am not going to be a ton of help here. I am kind of new myself... Didn't have algae issues so much. But I did bring in a fish that had ich.. Had to set up QT Tanks.. empty DT to catch all the fish and let my DT set with nothing in it for 2 months.. I know it sucks. But I know some experts will chime in and help you get through this.. BUT I NEVER wanna Hear QUIT come out of that keyboard again.. You can do this. I know you can.. #reefsquad ...Let's call in the Big Dogs...

 

[cfendya]

Thanks sir! When you set up your QT tank, how did you manage filtration in it. I'd see this as a similar situation since my best guess is it'd take a similar amount of time to cycle the rock, clean the tank, etc.

Well I am not going to be a ton of help here. I am kind of new myself... Didn't have algae issues so much. But I did bring in a fish that had ich.. Had to set up QT Tanks.. empty DT to catch all the fish and let my DT set with nothing in it for 2 months.. I know it sucks. But I know some experts will chime in and help you get through this.. BUT I NEVER wanna Hear QUIT come out of that keyboard again.. You can do this. I know you can.. #reefsquad ...Let's call in the Big Dogs...

 

[CasaReefer]

Thanks sir! When you set up your QT tank, how did you manage filtration in it. I'd see this as a similar situation since my best guess is it'd take a similar amount of time to cycle the rock, clean the tank, etc.

I just bought a 20 gal from petsmart.. Used the hang on the back filter it came with but did not use the filter cartridge that came with it. I got the blue filter media and cut it to size and then started adding Microbacter7 as directed. because I had six fish in there I ordered a 7 dollar sponge filter from Amazon and put that in the tank a few days later and ran both filters. I did not cycle anything. It worked out very well for me. I did not lose 1 fish... Did 50 percent water changes every other day. You can look at my QT set up on my build thread if it might help you.

 

[cfendya]

50% water change every other day for 2 months? Ouch but it shows and it paid off being you didn't lose anything. Thanks for the feedback and input on the QT. Just checked your build thread and it helped a lot in what you did.

Decisions...decisions...

I just bought a 20 gal from petsmart.. Used the hang on the back filter it came with but did not use the filter cartridge that came with it. I got the blue filter media and cut it to size and then started adding Microbacter7 as directed. because I had six fish in there I ordered a 7 dollar sponge filter from Amazon and put that in the tank a few days later and ran both filters. I did not cycle anything. It worked out very well for me. I did not lose 1 fish... Did 50 percent water changes every other day. You can look at my QT set up on my build thread if it might help you.

 

[CasaReefer]

50% water change every other day for 2 months? Ouch but it shows and it paid off being you didn't lose anything. Thanks for the feedback and input on the QT. Just checked your build thread and it helped a lot in what you did.

Decisions...decisions...

every other day that's only 10 gals

 

[CasaReefer]

Bump @ReefSquad #reefsquad

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Hey, been there

Can you post a pic to see how bad we are talking before we throw in the towel

 

[CasaReefer]

Hey, been there

Can you post a pic to see how bad we are talking before we throw in the towel

Thank You..

 

[Idoc]

If you wish to battle the dinos, you really need to know the type of dinos you have in your system. They can only be identified with a microscope view. If you have one or a friend has a scope (maybe your LFS), it would be good to take a look at some samples...and take photos, if possible. The battle depends greatly on the type you have! Dinos are in most systems...just controlled. So instead of thinking about getting rid of them completely, think about how to control them. All forms seem to be controlled well by elevating nitrates/phosphates in the system in order to allow other types of algae to take hold...including some GHA! UV works on some types of dinos but not on others...

There are a few 1000+ post threads on R2R pertaining to Dino fighting. It's hours of reading and research...but good information! Again, knowing the type of dino helps narrow your thread research.

Dinos are more easily capable of overtaking dry rock and dry sand systems because those systems are not mature enough with biodiversity to out-compete the dinos. It doesn't mean you can't start with dry rock, but it isn't going to be a quick bacteria-in-a-bottle cycle in 1-2 weeks and think the biodiversity will be in place to keep dinos controlled. You will need to go slowly, build biodiversity with pods, algae growth, different nitrying bacteria, consider Miracle Mud type substrates for a refugium, phytoplankton to keep the pods going, etc...

I battled dinos for approx. 8-12 months...it's still in my system! It's not a quick battle...there's really no quick answer to dinos, especially if you have a type that isn't controlled by a UV sterilizer. I'm just trying to keep it under control and realize it's part of my system now....It's not the end of the world.

As for bubble algae, I'd remove those rocks and manually remove as much as possible OUTSIDE your main tank. The spot scrub those areas with a toothbrush and H2O2...and then do it again and again as new spots start showing up....eventually you will get it.

If you do want to do a restart...make sure all equipment is soaked for around 24hrs in a bleach/water mixture to ensure everything is killed, and then allowed to dry a couple of days before use again. Starting with live rock would probably be more ideal.

 

[cfendya]

I will try to get a pic of the mess but have been blowing off rocks, stirring sand, etc trying to get things into the water column so I can remove it all from the tank. All of this kicks my OCD in overdrive so I really haven't let it get to the point where a pic would do it justice or where anyone on here would be willing to further help I am traveling over the next couple days and know my wife won't get in there to stir things up so when I get home, I'll grab a pic before my OCD kicks in.

Hey, been there

Can you post a pic to see how bad we are talking before we throw in the towel

I've read a ton of the posts here and by all means, there is a ton of valuable information. I don't have a microscope and know that makes all this even that more difficult. What I can tell you is... these are or seem to be different than the first ones. My first battle had them forming mats on the sand and seemed to be stuck to everything including the side glass and MP40's. This round they seem to stay confined to the rocks mostly but as each day passes on, the substrate is getting more and more of them I feel. Tonight I did have a few mats in layers.

As I blow them off the sand and rocks, I turned off my MP40s, turned on an air pump for micro scrubbing and they all floated to the top in bunches allowing me to net a lot of them. This is the first time I took this approach and after a bunch of netting and then changing out the filter floss in the sump, I was surprised just how many were captured. I also took a few passes in blowing the rocks to make sure any that were blown around and stuck to things would get dislodged.

Finally, since I'll be gone over the next couple days and not at home to look at the mess, I figured what better time to go dark so plan on leaving the lights out while I'm gone. Depending on how things look when I get home, I'll see if this has any help as well.

If you wish to battle the dinos, you really need to know the type of dinos you have in your system. They can only be identified with a microscope view. If you have one or a friend has a scope (maybe your LFS), it would be good to take a look at some samples...and take photos, if possible. The battle depends greatly on the type you have! Dinos are in most systems...just controlled. So instead of thinking about getting rid of them completely, think about how to control them. All forms seem to be controlled well by elevating nitrates/phosphates in the system in order to allow other types of algae to take hold...including some GHA! UV works on some types of dinos but not on others...

 

[cfendya]

FWIW...Here is a picture of things when I first moved everything over. I miss those days...

 

[ScottR]

FWIW...Here is a picture of things when I first moved everything over. I miss those days...

Beautiful set up. I’ve battled cyano, dinos, you name it. Dinos are probably the most frustrating thing I’ve dealt with. There is no quick fix. But as someone mentioned, increasing biodiversity is key. I added live rock and a few different bottled bacterias (not sure if this helps to be honest). I did lights out for 3 days. With algae, lights out doesn’t make sense as it’ll just come back. But with dinos, the idea is that lights out will cause it to dissipate into the water (look in when your lights first kick on, almost no sign of dinos. Then they come back in swarms). When lights are out, hopefully it’ll give other organisms a chance to take hold and dinos will have thus been defeated. It takes a lot of time and patience and you can get over it.

 

[SPR1968]

As far as the fish are concerned could you come to an arrangement with your LFS to house them temporarily if you decide to restart the system? Or worst case, just buy a cheap tank (or borrow the one you suggest) with basic filtration systems.

Your tank looks beautiful from the picture above by the way, although I appreciate things have now changed, but don’t give up.

Things like GHA need something to feed on so what could their food source be, probably phosphate which could be a reason for the low figures. What systems do you have in place to control/remove this ?

As far as dino’s are concerned I had them once, and I did a 3 day blackout (just lights off and curtains closed), but I also increased flow to the affected areas. When the lights came on they had gone and fortunately never came back, but I believe the increased flow helped here. I appreciate it can depend on the strain, but this worked for me and sounds like your going to try it so let’s see, fingers crossed.

Hopefully we can get you back on track, and an up to date picture would be helpful.

 

[LC8Sumi]

IMO the main problem here is not enough rock. Do you have marinepure blocks or something like that in the sump to give bacteria a chance to grow a healthy population & outcompete dinos?

 

[cfendya]

You make an excellent point here and something I’ve wondered about in the past. I actually did add some Marine Pure (2 quart of the balls) in my sump shortly after I upgraded the tank. I was battling some other algae issues which was the reason in doing so.

Per Marine Pure’s website, 1gallon of these will support 500 gallons so I figure with my total water capacity of 100gallon 2 quarts of these should suffice. Do you think this is correct?

IMO the main problem here is not enough rock. Do you have marinepure blocks or something like that in the sump to give bacteria a chance to grow a healthy population & outcompete dinos?

In way of filtration and other things to control nutrients, it starts with filter floss in two media cups, a LifeReef skimmer, and then a few months ago I brought on two reactors (1 for GFO and 1 for carbon). I actually just shut both down to try to raise my PH and now have Rox in a media bag in one of my media cups.

Things like GHA need something to feed on so what could their food source be, probably phosphate which could be a reason for the low figures. What systems do you have in place to control/remove this ?

 

[LC8Sumi]

Yes, 2 quarts of marinepure + the rock in your DT should be enough probably. I know it might feel embarasing (it is not, most of us have been there), but could you post an FTS of the current situation?

 

[SPR1968]

You make an excellent point here and something I’ve wondered about in the past. I actually did add some Marine Pure (2 quart of the balls) in my sump shortly after I upgraded the tank. I was battling some other algae issues which was the reason in doing so.

Per Marine Pure’s website, 1gallon of these will support 500 gallons so I figure with my total water capacity of 100gallon 2 quarts of these should suffice. Do you think this is correct?



In way of filtration and other things to control nutrients, it starts with filter floss in two media cups, a LifeReef skimmer, and then a few months ago I brought on two reactors (1 for GFO and 1 for carbon). I actually just shut both down to try to raise my PH and now have Rox in a media bag in one of my media cups.

You really need to have the GFO in a reactor if possible as it’s not very effective in a media bag at all. I’m not familiar with Rox you mention, but I would get the GFO reactor up and running again. I run rhowaphos 24/7 in a reactor and will be doing so from day 1 in my new system, as you need to keep phosphate locked down very low at around 0.03ppm to avoid all sorts of issues.

Unless you have good reason, I wouldn’t worry about your pH if it’s between 7.8-8.5 and you also need to account for test error +/-

I wouldn’t necessarily be to concerned about your nitrate if <10ppm, that’s fine, but if you want to get some marine pure in then do so. You can’t really have 2 much filtration as long as you don’t create ‘sterile’ water conditions.