Reefer_Rob
Active Member
Reef LED Lighting is out. Think im going to snag these once available.
https://www.redseafish.com/hardware/reefled/
https://www.redseafish.com/hardware/reefled/
Reef LED Lighting
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I'm continually puzzled by high-priced aquarium LEDs that put out lower PAR than a standard black box. I totally get that spectrum matters too, but I don't see anything terribly unusual here either (mix of blues and whites).
What am I missing? This question applies to more than this specific light, although this is a good example of it.
What am I missing? This question applies to more than this specific light, although this is a good example of it.
Mr.Z
Active Member
Are there any black boxes that actually compete with the premium lighting options?
As you mentioned, spectrum matters, and I don't think that's something to just be glossed over. Also Red Sea (and other similar light manufacturers) offers additional attributes which are genuinely valuable:
1. implied reliability from a reputable manufacturer,
2. customer service if something does go wrong with the light or you need assistance with troubleshooting,
3. attractive form of the lighting unit as well as the subjectively more appealing lighting qualities (shimmer, etc.)
4. integrated wi-fi with a dedicated mobile app
5. guidance from the company and industry on how to actually implement the light successfully
6. on/off, ramp up/down, and cycle programming
I'm just getting into this hobby so my insights may be lacking, but I've done a bunch of research and it seems the value premium lighting offers can absolutely be worth the investment for many in the hobby. With that said, I do admit that black boxes can "get the job done".
Premium lighting does not seem to be a requirement, but it does certainly add incremental value beyond the most basic options.
Putting aside the bells and whistles, though. Purely in terms of PAR and spectrum. Black boxes easily hit 400-500 on the sand bed. And depending on the model, include at least as much if not more coverage in the important parts of the spectrum.
I'd turn your question around. I havent seen evidence of a "premium" lighting option that competes with black boxes, in terms of PAR + spectrum / price. Putting aside the bells and whistles like sunrise etc., do you know of one that outperforms a black box?
I guess what I'm getting at is that I would think the output and spectrum of a black box, which are cheap and plentiful, would be the minimum standard to match when bringing a new light to market.
I'd turn your question around. I havent seen evidence of a "premium" lighting option that competes with black boxes, in terms of PAR + spectrum / price. Putting aside the bells and whistles like sunrise etc., do you know of one that outperforms a black box?
I guess what I'm getting at is that I would think the output and spectrum of a black box, which are cheap and plentiful, would be the minimum standard to match when bringing a new light to market.
Mr.Z
Active Member
I don't think it makes sense to just put aside the "bells and whistles". Those features provide meaningful value for hobbyists.
Are black boxes really putting out more PAR than the premium lighting? Maybe that's the case for some.
Hasn't it been proven that black boxes are NOT achieving the same desired spectrum as premium lighting? Meaning the PUR of black boxes is certainly behind?
The fact that businesses which grow coral, and have every incentive to choose the cheapest light that grows corals the best, purchase expensive lights such as EcoTech provides very compelling evidence that the PUR of premium lights justifies the cost. Especially considering these businesses have less use for the meaningful features which benefit hobbyists.
Sarah24!
2500 Club Member
Hello,
I would suggest you visit your local aquarium. 90% of them have none of these so called premium lights. They run the Chinese black boxes, current usa, and they still run mh and some t5 but less and less t5. I don’t have premium lights, and my tank has the same growth as those who do.
Anybody can have a nice reef when they throw as much money as possible into it. But try having a nice reef equal to the others, with 1/3 the cost that’s a more fun challenge.
I want to make sure to point out that people can do what they want with their money, it’s theirs enough said. If some light to them is worth spending 5,000 etc (for example ) then okay it’s their money. Do I think companies can reasonably justify their price, no at least not for some of the companies who continue to be the most expensive in every thing they make.
A light can have all the bells and whistles possible, but they still won’t make anyone a reefer. People who are in this hobby enjoy the entire aspect, they learn about all of it. Lights are one dimensional, if one can’t figure out the other working aspects of a reef the most expensive bell and whistle lights are nothing more than heavy paper weights.
Mr.Z
Active Member
I think I agree with everything you've said. Black boxes definitely have their place in the hobby and spending more on an expensive light will be worth it for many people, but is not necessary for anyone.
Sarah24!
2500 Club Member
Hello,
Yes, that is true I would never talk one out of buying something they want. It would amaze most people how much slack or grief I have received (not on here but locally), for using the lights I do. (They are not black boxes). But they always want to know how my tank grows so fast. I can’t even figure out why my tank consumes sooo much substance wise on a daily basis.
If you do go with the norm high end lights aka hydra Ecotech and kessill which are all good lights. Just be aware that you must know exactly what they are going to do. You can easily bleach and kill corals with any led fixture, but you can also do it easily with these as well.
A better question may be, to know what you want to create in your tank. Visiting places like wwc or Jason fox etc are designed errrr to sell corals and or lights and products. But again visit your aquarium (if there is one) and simply find a tank you think is amazing. Then ask them what they are using on it. It’s not to uncommon for a tank to look amazing with one item and terrible with another.
Joel Franco
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$340 per light that comes with more bells and whistles than the $600-900 radions. You could buy almost 3 for the cost of one XR30 Gen 4 Pro. Think about that. We need new lights like this at a lower cost to the competition so that competitors drop their prices to be more reasonable/ affordable.
Joel Franco
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$340 per light that comes with more bells and whistles than the $600-900 radions. You could buy almost 3 for the cost of one XR30 Gen 4 Pro. Think about that. We need new lights like this at a lower cost to the competition so that competitors drop their prices to be more reasonable/ affordable.
Bouncingsoul39
Valuable Member
Is $340 for the 50 watt or the 90 watt? @redsea can you give us a an idea of the MAP pricing for both models?
I've never seen such proof. Considering the raw PAR is 50-100% higher and the color LED chips are very similar I have a hard time believing there is a measurable difference in PUR. If you have data I'd love to see it.
Mr.Z
Active Member
This BRStv investigates video covers the topic pretty well:
I think it was an interesting one to watch, but here's the key takeaways:
- black box they tested misses key spectrum ranges, but the spectrum it does offer is blended fairly evenly
- average PAR was lower than the XR30 tested (although the XR30 had wattage that was a bit higher), so maybe call this a wash
- PAR of the black box was unevenly distributed with very narrow bright spots in the middle and little light on the sides, although this could be mitigated to some degree with multiple units
- black box seemed to be electrically inefficient and poses not just reliability issues, but is a fire hazard
- black box shimmer and color blending actually was visually quite appealing
Bouncingsoul39
Valuable Member
Holy heck dude this video is garbage proves nothing and helps nothing in this discussion. Most biased and misleading junk they’ve ever done. They are NOT fire hazards!
Mr.Z
Active Member
Clearly a lot of effort went into that video with hard data to back up any statements made. The video proves much more than "nothing". It's up to you to decide if they're being biased, but I've seen enough contribution from BRS to believe that they provide honest content with honest intentions.
Please share any reliable sources on the topic that you have.
I guess it depends on where you live because I hardly see black boxes used in LFS’s anymore. We’ve got a lot of stores in the Atlanta area, most use radion or hydra, or even the occasional halide. One store I frequent a lot, because he has great prices, uses primarily black boxes (at least I think they are), but I hate having to guess what his corals will look like in my tank, because the colors and everything looks so washed out and dull under his lights compared to what it will look like under my radions when I bring something home. I can’t recommend black boxes, just haven’t seen any that compare visually. If they weren’t so cheap/inexpensive compared to “premium”products, no one would buy them.. so that is enough for me to steer clear of them when choosing perhaps the most important tool on my reef tank. I understand the desire to use them though, especially when you need multiple light fixtures and don’t want to spend thousands on your lighting.
Its important to recognize that stores have multiple reasons for displaying lights. Its not just about what grows corals best. Its also about advertising the lights that they are selling. Manufacturers offer stores meaningful discounts to make this possible. Both stores and manufacturers benefit from this practice. Even if the 'high end' lights are no better than black boxes. (Please note, I am not criticizing either the store owners or manufacturers here. Thats just good business. I am simply saying, there is more to their decision than just what grows corals best).
I'm glad someone is running tests comparing lights. Perhaps someday they'll write down the results in a text format where search engines can index the information and people can find it and read about it.
Every time I've measured PAR on a tank with high end lights it has been lower than the output of the black boxes I've tested. But there are a lot of different lights out there, I don't doubt their numbers were accurate, just doubt their universality.
I've run 16 black boxes on various systems over the past 4 years. The dimmer went out on one. No other problems, certainly no fire. Forgive me if I discount the "fire risk" as marketing nonsense put out by the high end light manufacturers.
While black boxes vary widely in the chips they include (from 2 to 8 or 9 colors), its pretty easy to look at the selection of chips and decide whether it covers the spectrum you want. or swap out a few chips for a different one. The ease of customizing black boxes alone is enough to make me a diehard fan. Its just a better form factor specifically because its so easy to modify.
I'm glad someone is running tests comparing lights. Perhaps someday they'll write down the results in a text format where search engines can index the information and people can find it and read about it.
Every time I've measured PAR on a tank with high end lights it has been lower than the output of the black boxes I've tested. But there are a lot of different lights out there, I don't doubt their numbers were accurate, just doubt their universality.
I've run 16 black boxes on various systems over the past 4 years. The dimmer went out on one. No other problems, certainly no fire. Forgive me if I discount the "fire risk" as marketing nonsense put out by the high end light manufacturers.
While black boxes vary widely in the chips they include (from 2 to 8 or 9 colors), its pretty easy to look at the selection of chips and decide whether it covers the spectrum you want. or swap out a few chips for a different one. The ease of customizing black boxes alone is enough to make me a diehard fan. Its just a better form factor specifically because its so easy to modify.
I have used both, my wish list from black boxes.
-They actually tested diode placement. The colors are randomly distributed based on math of light created not how they will perform in real life.
-They produce more disco ball effect then some other offerings.
-actually offered mounting options. You can hang them out of the box. Anything else is up to you to diy.
-diffuse plate instead of the clear glass. May offset the limits of my first point. Again going to have to diy here.
-loud fans compared to more expensive lighting i can hear these kick on, and know when they are running.
-a 1-10v control out of the box would be great. Honestly messing with the electrical components inside to add greater controllability is not what most reefers want to do.
-they are kinda eyesores. They are produced in bulk they could have the same price point and created a more pleasing housing
-They actually tested diode placement. The colors are randomly distributed based on math of light created not how they will perform in real life.
-They produce more disco ball effect then some other offerings.
-actually offered mounting options. You can hang them out of the box. Anything else is up to you to diy.
-diffuse plate instead of the clear glass. May offset the limits of my first point. Again going to have to diy here.
-loud fans compared to more expensive lighting i can hear these kick on, and know when they are running.
-a 1-10v control out of the box would be great. Honestly messing with the electrical components inside to add greater controllability is not what most reefers want to do.
-they are kinda eyesores. They are produced in bulk they could have the same price point and created a more pleasing housing
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