Reefers Moonshine Method - Let's discuss

[Utubereefer]

I did say that. I also said i plan to do it soon.

Cool. So you have no experience with this

 

[mindme]

This is an open discussion

Now I have my opinions but I'm not here to say dosing with no waterchanges is wrong.

Aparently I've personally offended @Saltyreef to the Pont where he needs to personally assassinate me. Whatever...

You can do whatever. You can dose banana smoothies for all I care.

Me personally I can't wrap my head around paying $600+ a year for ICP testing THEN the cost of dosing on top of that.

It's a well known fact that Trooic Marin uses pharmaceutical grade elements in their salt mix.

I personally would take the $1000 I'm spending on ICP test + dosing (to avoid the manual labor of WCs) ...and buy TM salt

But that's just me. Y'all do what y'all do.

.

What size tank do you have?

And I'm not sure where you are getting $600 a year. You can get an ICP test for $35. That's $420 a year if you do it every month, $210 a year every other month or $17.50 a month, and $140 a year every 3 months, aka $11.60 a month .

$40 for instant ocean salt, 160 gallons, even though we know it will really only make about 140 gallons. On a 200g tank, that is 80 gallons every month. So a bucket of salt every 2 months, and that's $20 a month.

So in my case, it's not more expensive.

 

[Saltyreef]

Cool. So you have no experience with this

Yes i do have some experience with this method.
Ive read andres handbook a few times already and plan to incorperate his method shortly in my current tank.

No experience and i wouldnt be making comments here.

Whats your level of experience with this method?

 

[mindme]

Cool. So you have no experience with this

I haven't used this method specifically, but I have been doing 0 water changes and dosing trace minerals for the past year on my 180g. There is no reason why this method would be worse than what I am currently doing.

I did about a 20 gallon water change once. At 4am in the morning after my UV hose came undone after I moved it in the night and poured out about 20 gallons of salt water on my floor. So I had to make make some salt water up and replenish it.

Otherwise, 0 water changes in the past year.

 

[mindme]

6 socks?!? That seems like a lot of work

I didn't design the sump, I would do much less.

 

[Peace River]

R2R was founded on the simple premise to develop a warm, friendly, suitable place to gather and discuss this hobby for people of all ages, backgrounds, and experience levels. The “Be Nice” policy is something we take very seriously. This can be especially challenging when we perceive trolling activity - please work to separate the problem from the people and focus on addressing the problem.

We highly encourage healthy debate here and understand not everyone will agree on all issues. In fact, we value healthy and even lively discussion of hobby issues and questions...this actually leads to advancements in our hobby, so we ALL win through these debates. What we will not tolerate is the negativity, name calling, belittling attitude towards other members or the topics being discussed. We are not asking you to cease debating your positions. What we are asking is that you do so in a healthy, respectful manner.

 

[kiran]

R2R was founded on the simple premise to develop a warm, friendly, suitable place to gather and discuss this hobby for people of all ages, backgrounds, and experience levels. The “Be Nice” policy is something we take very seriously. This can be especially challenging when we perceive trolling activity - please work to separate the problem from the people and focus on addressing the problem.

We highly encourage healthy debate here and understand not everyone will agree on all issues. In fact, we value healthy and even lively discussion of hobby issues and questions...this actually leads to advancements in our hobby, so we ALL win through these debates. What we will not tolerate is the negativity, name calling, belittling attitude towards other members or the topics being discussed. We are not asking you to cease debating your positions. What we are asking is that you do so in a healthy, respectful manner.

I've already decided to add a couple people in this post to my ignore list.

I don't want to deal with the nonsense from certain members I've seen in this thread. It's seriously off-putting. I came in here because I was interested in the topic but it seems like it was made to only take jabs at people trying to provide some input.

 

[Utubereefer]

Yes i do have some experience with this method.
Ive read andres handbook a few times already and plan to incorperate his method shortly in my current tank.

No experience and i wouldnt be making comments here.

Whats your level of experience with this method?

I’m here to learn from people who are actually using this method. And FYI peace is talking to you

 

[ZoWhat]

R2R was founded on the simple premise to develop a warm, friendly, suitable place to gather and discuss this hobby for people of all ages, backgrounds, and experience levels. The “Be Nice” policy is something we take very seriously. This can be especially challenging when we perceive trolling activity - please work to separate the problem from the people and focus on addressing the problem.

We highly encourage healthy debate here and understand not everyone will agree on all issues. In fact, we value healthy and even lively discussion of hobby issues and questions...this actually leads to advancements in our hobby, so we ALL win through these debates. What we will not tolerate is the negativity, name calling, belittling attitude towards other members or the topics being discussed. We are not asking you to cease debating your positions. What we are asking is that you do so in a healthy, respectful manner.

Thank you Bruce.

I asked open ended questions and then gave my opinion for how that applied TO ME. My methods, my budget.

Everyone is just ready to fight... over opinions, over parking spaces, line position at the self checkout, how long it takes to get food served.

It's turning into a very disgruntled world unfortunately

 

[Radman73]

I have my first ICP test in hand. I'll send it off tomorrow most likely. This method made the most sense as it offered the best shot at control over elements necessary for coral health and growth. I've killed enough corals to realize I have to find a better way that works for me, and the coral of course. The cost of the ICP tests and elements are not much if it results in a much healthier tank than I've provided so far. YMMV.

 

[Radman73]

I will add, it is very difficult for me to identify any cons to this method. Any reasons why it shouldn't work. People can take task with the adjustments to the levels from natural seawater, but I haven't seen anyone claim that the method does not work. Perhaps it was too expensive, too much work to dose daily, too difficult to control nutrients(this will certainly be a challenge for me), but not that the was a flaw in the program that made it unworkable.

 

[ZoWhat]

I have my first ICP test in hand. I'll send it off tomorrow most likely. This method made the most sense as it offered the best shot at control over elements necessary for coral health and growth. I've killed enough corals to realize I have to find a better way that works for me, and the coral of course. The cost of the ICP tests and elements are not much if it results in a much healthier tank than I've provided so far. YMMV.

And if that's what you want to do as your method, awesome

For me, 20% waterchanges on the 1st and 15th of each month with a great salt mix is my method. Ive yet to kill anything using a WC.

I've automated my WCs to where start2finish is around 10mins.

I drain the sump prior to adding water thru a pvc pipe into my floor drain with a ball valve.

55g rodi water in a drum ready to dump thru a gravity hose while mixing salt in my 100g sump with the pump O F F

5mins to drain
5mins to refill and add salt
Wait 1hr and turn recirculation pump back on refeeding the tank

Easy peasy.

 

[Saltyreef]

Thank you Bruce.

I asked open ended questions and then gave my opinion for how that applied TO ME. My methods, my budget.

Everyone is just ready to fight... over opinions, over parking spaces, line position at the self checkout, how long it takes to get food served.

It's turning into a very disgruntled world unfortunately

You literally have a photo of a troll as your avatar and your track record of smart alec comments doesnt help your case.

Sometimes your open ended questions can be perceieved as trolling as you often do in your threads.....

Sorry....this is the truth. You cant act all innocent when the mod shows up and not expect to be called out....

The screenshot below is a "trolling response" to someone who answered your question with utter politeness.

 

[muzikalmatt]

I apologize for getting defensive @zoa what . It's difficult to interpret tone or intent on the internet, but let's be honest, the avatar certainly doesn't help. Haha!

Anyways, I've been using this method for about a month now and I have definitely seen a noticeable improvement in the health and appearance of my corals. Not that they were in bad shape before, but they have noticeably improved, particularly the zoas and euphyllia. I also find that the daily dosing keeps me more in tune with the tank and forces me to observe more frequently.

I'll be sending off my second ICP test in the new year to see how the dosing has affected the levels in the tank and adjust accordingly. I haven't stopped doing water changes yet (I do ~15% weekly water changes.), but that may change in the future. My nutrient export methods seem to be holding my levels pretty steady without the need for water changes, so other than habit and routine, I'm not sure water changes are entirely necessary for me.

While water changes with a quality salt mix can certainly replenish depleted trace elements in your tank, many of them are depleted well before your next water change, even if it's weekly. So I think it makes sense to replenish those specific elements with the daily dosing that the moonshiners method calls for.

 

[ZoWhat]

I apologize for getting defensive @zoa what . It's difficult to interpret tone or intent on the internet, but let's be honest, the avatar certainly doesn't help. Haha!

.... and that's the problem here

My comments are satirical stretches in comedy in my head yet those that read them with a serious attitude can construe them to be put downs.

Nooooooo. My intention is to never put anyone down.

Sorry for the misunderstandings

 

[Peace River]

Now that people have had there say and attempted to clarify there position - let's get back to the topic and focus on the problem and not the people.

 

[mindme]

And if that's what you want to do as your method, awesome

For me, 20% waterchanges on the 1st and 15th of each month with a great salt mix is my method. Ive yet to kill anything using a WC.

I've automated my WCs to where start2finish is around 10mins.

I drain the sump prior to adding water thru a pvc pipe into my floor drain with a ball valve.

55g rodi water in a drum ready to dump thru a gravity hose while mixing salt in my 100g sump with the pump O F F

5mins to drain
5mins to refill and add salt
Wait 1hr and turn recirculation pump back on refeeding the tank

Easy peasy.

You started this thread, and yet every time someone answers you do this. You put them down so you can tell them what you do - which has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

You made a claim about the costs. I took the time to show you the error, and yet you completely ignored it and went on about something else.

Personally, I'm adding you to my ignore list. I think you are the first person I've added.

 

[muzikalmatt]

Yes, my understanding is that both are based on the very good premise of dosing exactly what is needed. It is part of my "dream method".

The complications are:

1. knowing what is in the water (ICP is not perfect in this regard as it ignores chemical form, and may or may not be accurate). The need to know also varies with time. If I dose Mn, how long is it adequately bioavailable? Hours? Days? Weeks?
2. Knowing what concentration of what chemical is actually required and/or optimal in the water
3. Knowing what to do about elements that are too high

I'm really intrigued by this response especially calling it part of your "dream method". (high praise from someone with your knowledge and background)

The fact that this method is even possible due to the availability of ICP testing is pretty amazing, but as you've pointed out there are definitely flaws in the testing and method. Hopefully we can see further progress on the testing front to answer some of the questions/complications you pointed out (assuming that's even possible).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I will add, it is very difficult for me to identify any cons to this method. Any reasons why it shouldn't work.

I'm happy to oblige...some things can be more complicated then they seem. Doesn't mean this isn't a good method, or even the best method, but to suggest it has no downside is not true.

It is likely a very fine method, and I like it in principle, but I already gave some cons and will repeat them in case you didn't see them:

1. There is an assumption that ICP is accurate (tests suggest that is not always the case).

2. There is an assumption that a simple number for, say, iron, tells you what you need to know. Untrue. Chemical form matters a large amount, and that may vary from tank to tank even if you dose the same form.

3. Some ions deplete very fast (hours to days), requiring quite frequent testing, at least once, to see how fast they are depleting. Cost and effort.

4. Dosing every individual ion can be tedious and costly.

5. What to do for, say, elevated ions, organics, and skewed ion profiles is often not clear without water changes.

 

[dvgyfresh]

No water changes gets detritus piling up in your sump. Ticking time bomb

Mulm is beneficial in a reef , my tank thrives if mulm is accumulating in sump - this is what miracle mud is. My nutrients are the most stable after I got an inch or so of mulm in the sump , pods , brittle stars , sponge explosion and my nitrate/ phos is about 20 ppm and .08 ppm, I try to create an environment where the tank does the cleaning not me , my sand stays white - I do have to clean the glass a lot snails are lazy lol but my reef is also mixed mainly softies