Reefers Moonshine Method - Let's discuss

[ZoWhat]

I can’t believe you would talk to the master like that

Well. I was on bended knee when I typed it

 

[J1a]

I really appreciate @Randy Holmes-Farley 's comments about the interpretation of icp tests, especially pertaining to the rate of consumption.

Take this analogy for example : kH. With all those kh monitor around, we know that the aquarium consumes kh differently day to night. If we were to do a kh test once a month, I doubt it can give us much clarity about consumption of kH in a smaller time scale.

Therefore, in my opinion, ICP test is more effective at discovering long term element deviations.

I have not used RM or Triton methods, I think they are sound methods. I merely question the need and the true ability to achieve this level of control.

 

[paintman]

I still find it amazing that someone will send a test tube full of their tank water all the way out to California, and then to the other side of the planet (Germany). Just so they can find out what to purchase from Texas.

 

[Radman73]

I still find it amazing that someone will send a test tube full of their tank water all the way out to California, and then to the other side of the planet (Germany). Just so they can find out what to purchase from Texas.

Global economy.

 

[Radman73]

I really appreciate @Randy Holmes-Farley 's comments about the interpretation of icp tests, especially pertaining to the rate of consumption.

Take this analogy for example : kH. With all those kh monitor around, we know that the aquarium consumes kh differently day to night. If we were to do a kh test once a month, I doubt it can give us much clarity about consumption of kH in a smaller time scale.

Therefore, in my opinion, ICP test is more effective at discovering long term element deviations.

I have not used RM or Triton methods, I think they are sound methods. I merely question the need and the true ability to achieve this level of control.

I could send off ICP tests for every hour in a day if I wanted to, but the cost to benefit isn't remotely close to making it worthwhile. Monthly ICP testing can accomplish this at the reasonable degree of accuracy needed for our use. Fluctuations throughout the day(or week/month/quarter) for the trace elements are expected and do not appear to present the same challenges as a daily/weekly swing in alk, calc, or mag could cause.

As for the need to achieve this level of control, I think it varies from person to person. The old adage that no two tanks are the same rings very true here. Some of us need to at least attempt this level of control whether the reason is psychological, the use of different products that haven't met tank needs, or any of a number of other reasons.

If this were crazy expensive I could understand the hesitancy for some, but it really isn't even that expensive compared to other methods and might be less expensive for some. It's another method for trying to achieve the same result we all want.

 

[Reefahholic]

So what? Budget $600/yr in ICP tests?

Typically about 6 ICP tests a year. After the system is dialed in well you can go longer.

No need for hobby grade iodine, potassium, strontium, etc.. tests that are difficult to perform and hard to read.

You will also catch any potential contaminants.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I could send off ICP tests for every hour in a day if I wanted to, but the cost to benefit isn't remotely close to making it worthwhile. Monthly ICP testing can accomplish this at the reasonable degree of accuracy needed for our use. Fluctuations throughout the day(or week/month/quarter) for the trace elements are expected and do not appear to present the same challenges as a daily/weekly swing in alk, calc, or mag could cause.

As for the need to achieve this level of control, I think it varies from person to person. The old adage that no two tanks are the same rings very true here. Some of us need to at least attempt this level of control whether the reason is psychological, the use of different products that haven't met tank needs, or any of a number of other reasons.

If this were crazy expensive I could understand the hesitancy for some, but it really isn't even that expensive compared to other methods and might be less expensive for some. It's another method for trying to achieve the same result we all want.

So that everyone understands what this means, what exactly do you know about the iron and manganese levels in your system?

How often do you dose them, and when do you measure relative to dosing, and what values do you detect?

I'm not saying it is critical to know these levels every minute of every day, but I'm wondering how useful the method is for these rapidly depleting ions, and whether it is demonstrably better than just dosing "some" as other methods do.

The claim to matching a target level is really only viable if you know you are matching a justified target.

 

[Reefahholic]

Maybe I'm confused but isn't the moonshiners method the same as the triton method but with slight variation?

The Triton Method (Core 7) is 4 individual bottles or now…milk cartons.

I’ve been on the method 3x and longterm it doesn’t work for me. Elements either trend too high or too low. They do not stay in range. It’s difficult to put all the minor and trace elements in 4 bottles.

Moonshine addresses each element specifically.

 

[minus9]

Since you have presumably been through the process, can you elaborate on what you found for a depletion rate for iron and manganese? What levels are you targetting and how stable are they between doses?

Iron and manganese are part of the dailies and they've only shown up on ICP results once or twice when I using miracle mud. I use the less concentrated version of these elements, so the dosage is pretty small. Usually the test results are zero and what I'm dosing is consumed rapidly. The dailies that are dosed are cobalt, chromium, iron, manganese, vanadium and iodide. All dailies are based on 100g volume, so the calculator will adjust to your tanks volume automatically. Those of us who have 100g or less, use the nano-pump version of the dailies, which are less concentrated. When I was growing chaeto, I had to harvest it every two weeks or less.

 

[Reefahholic]

So that everyone understands what this means, what exactly do you know about the iron and manganese levels in your system?

How often do you dose them, and when do you measure relative to dosing, and what values do you detect?

I'm not saying it is critical to know these levels every minute of every day, but I'm wondering how useful the method is for these rapidly depleting ions, and whether it is demonstrably better than just dosing "some" as other methods do.

The claim to matching a target level is really only viable if you know you are matching a justified target.

Randy, these are very difficult elements as you already know! With the Moonshine method Iron and Manganese are part of the “Daily Dosing” if undetectable on the ICP test results. If they’re detectable we do not dose them.

• Iodide
• Manganese
• Cobalt
• Chromium
• Iron
• Vanadium

The concept behind this is that small amounts of these trace’s are continually available for added stability. :-)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The Triton Method (Core 7) is 4 individual bottles or now…milk cartons.

I’ve been on the method 3x and longterm it doesn’t work for me. Elements either trend too high or too low. They do not stay in range. It’s difficult to put all the minor and trace elements in 4 bottles.

Moonshine addresses each element specifically.

So does Triton.

It's not the core method. It's the minor and trace element supplementation exactly like moonshiners: test and dose individually as needed.

 

[Reefahholic]

I still find it amazing that someone will send a test tube full of their tank water all the way out to California, and then to the other side of the planet (Germany). Just so they can find out what to purchase from Texas.

Unfortunately we need more ICP testing in the USA.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Iron and manganese are part of the dailies and they've only shown up on ICP results once or twice when I using miracle mud. I use the less concentrated version of these elements, so the dosage is pretty small. Usually the test results are zero and what I'm dosing is consumed rapidly. The dailies that are dosed are cobalt, chromium, iron, manganese, vanadium and iodide. All dailies are based on 100g volume, so the calculator will adjust to your tanks volume automatically. Those of us who have 100g or less, use the nano-pump version of the dailies, which are less concentrated. When I was growing chaeto, I had to harvest it every two weeks or less.

Really?

How is that different than every other method around: dose some and hope its enough?

Takes away some of the shine from the moonshine method. lol

My dream method aspires to more. :)

 

[reef_ranch]

Randy, am I correct in concluding that one of your issues with a system that relies on monthly tests to measure elements that fluctuate daily is that the tests are necessarily prone to a high degree of error; i.e. if your sample was pulled when, say iron, was at a low level for the day and you adjust based on that test result, you will be overdosing for the actual mean level?

Are these errors mediated by repeating the tests each month? Or are they equally likely to be exacerbated?

 

[RGoltz]

So that everyone understands what this means, what exactly do you know about the iron and manganese levels in your system?

How often do you dose them, and when do you measure relative to dosing, and what values do you detect?

I'm not saying it is critical to know these levels every minute of every day, but I'm wondering how useful the method is for these rapidly depleting ions, and whether it is demonstrably better than just dosing "some" as other methods do.

The claim to matching a target level is really only viable if you know you are matching a justified target.

There are specific elements [manganese, iodide, chromium, cobalt, chromium, iron] which are doser based on the volume of your system together with some discretion on the amount of coral. These are expected to read 0 (zero) on the ICP. Honestly, I have my own question about whether these are consumed or oxidized.

I use the system based on the results that others have had (as previously mentioned, I have not seen anyone saying the system was not good for them). I do believe the system works and to each their own!

I do not take the ICP results on blind faith. When a large correction is called for, I tend to look at previous results and consider these while also performing the corrections over time and observing the system.

On a more personal level, I came back to the hobby after 20 years thinking that I would keep LPS but quickly found this not interesting and am keeping SPS using RM. Having a system to follow and the great support of the RM community and Andre himself has been great.

 

[X-37B]

Unfortunately we need more ICP testing in the USA.

We have one Triton USA. Its in LA.
This the one I am going to use to see what my levels are at.
24 to 48hr turn around.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, these are very difficult elements as you already know! With the Moonshine method Iron and Manganese are part of the “Daily Dosing” if undetectable on the ICP test results. If they’re detectable we do not dose them.

• Iodide
• Manganese
• Cobalt
• Chromium
• Iron
• Vanadium

The concept behind this is that small amounts of these trace’s are continually available for added stability. :)

How do you know it's enough? Just trusting that moonshine is putting enough in? Organism observation?

For iron and manganese, how's that different than dosing Kent iron and manganese supplement?

 

[Reefahholic]

So does Triton.

It's not the core method. It's the minor and trace element supplementation exactly like moonshiners: test and dose individually as needed.

Most people that I’ve talked to use the Core 7. Although, I think what that differentiates Triton from Moonshine is that they do not have an ICP assessment tool with guided dosing and problem solving.

Another thing is that Andre gives people specific guidance almost daily in our group. That in itself is worth its weight in gold especially at his experience level. Randy, that’s basically what you do in your forum also. Both of you guys are awesome and have helped me personally over the last 10-15 years more than I can count.

 

[Reefahholic]

We have one Triton USA. Its in LA.
This the one I am going to use to see what my levels are at.

Unfortunately they don’t test for some elements nor do they test your RODI water which a lot of the time is where problems stem from.

 

[minus9]

Really?

How is that different than every other method around: dose some and hope its enough?

Takes away some of the shine from the moonshine method. lol

My dream method aspires to more. :)

It's just another form of how one maintains chemistry, it's not for everyone and others could care less. The problem with other ways of maintaining chemistry is their limited ability to dose exactly what your tank needs and that you're not stuck with dosing 4 bottles with mixed elements at certain ratios. As someone who is actually maintaining a reef tank, I see it's results. I tried Triton, but had issues with the inability to dose what's needed and found a lot of elements were elevated or depleted. If someone has a dream method, then go for it, that's the great thing about this hobby, we can share and learn from each other. We should question our methods, but we also need to keep an open mind and see the benefits of how we each keep our tanks going.