- Rethinking "methods" in the reef game -

[najer]

Mentioned above a few times, what is your end desire, "systems" will cost you money, there are lots of ways to make this work, keeping it simple works for me!?

 

[Ross Petersen]

Definitely a night owl over the summer period anyhow.

British Columbia Canada. ~New to the paddling world but have explored much of BC (Sunshine Coast and Vancouver Island in particular). Just got back from desolation sound. Looking forward to heading south and checking out the islands off Bellingham soon too!

I might bring the microbiome piece to my local university friends at UBC and see what they can unravel.

@Ross Petersen

I suspect you may be a “night owl” as I am an “early bird”.

Kudos to your connection of lack of microbial diversity and old tank syndrome. I relate the analogy to a “climax forest” with a “dominant species” as “last man standing”.

Enjoy your kayaking vacation. What part of the country are you doing this?

 

[Ross Petersen]

Mentioned above a few times, what is your end desire, "systems" will cost you money, there are lots of ways to make this work, keeping it simple works for me!?

The end goal is to have an infrastructure in place that supports water quality, long term tank health, minimizes workload, employs what reefers (and hopefully science) validates, and that allows me to house SPS corals.

At present I’m looking at a custom setup with: socks (maybe even roller) —> skimmer —> return —> refugium (T’d off the return). The triton gods will ~hate that pathway. Good thing is I can always adapt it, and turn things off if need be.

Considering bare bottom or in the least minimal sand. Love wrasses though...

Will get dry rock to prevent any disease introduction and ‘seed’ with a bacterial cocktail that seems to work for all and that hopefully promotes microbial diversity. I’ll do the same for the refugium.

I’ll likely do water changes every 2 weeks at 10-15% or so in the beginning. Integrate ICP testing for meta views and student projects.

Medium flow rate+ for sure.

Medium bioload with a few softies but also a few SPS. Dosing with calcium and alkalinity either 2-part or with the kalkwatzer (spelling is off there!) combo.

LEDs with T5 or maybe just Orphek LEDs.

Would love to get constructive feedback on this!

 

[Subsea]

Definitely a night owl over the summer period anyhow.

British Columbia Canada. ~New to the paddling world but have explored much of BC (Sunshine Coast and Vancouver Island in particular). Just got back from desolation sound. Looking forward to heading south and checking out the islands off Bellingham soon too!

I might bring the microbiome piece to my local university friends at UBC and see what they can unravel.

I saw BC from the Continental Divide. An Air Force friend & I spent 90 days hiking Jasper& Banff after 4 years of Vietnam & Cambodia from 66-70. We destressed during those days in the mountains. The town of Banff was absolutely gorgeous ablaze with flowers. Even with the manicured gardens of Banff, the alpine meadows did not take second place. The meadows were stunning with wildflowers.

I saw your proposed game plan for reefing. It is on solid ground and will work fine. The single most important component of any system is due dilegence by the operator.

 

[Ross Petersen]

I saw BC from the Continental Divide. An Air Force friend & I spent 90 days hiking Jasper& Banff after 4 years of Vietnam & Cambodia from 66-70. We destressed during those days on the mountains. The town of Banff was absolutely gorgeous ablaze with flowers. Even with the manicured gardens of Banff, the alpine meadows were stunning with wildflowers.

I saw your proposed game plan for reefing. It is on solid ground and will work fine. The single most important component of any system is due dilegence by the operator.

Incredible for me (a relative youngster) to think about your experiences. Glad to hear you explored the Banff area - absolutely therapeutic. It's becoming a tourist magnet but still worth the trip.

I love your last point of due diligence. So true in all avenues of life...

 

[Subsea]

“Banff area - absolutely therapeutic. It's becoming a tourist magnet but still worth the trip.”

Coincidently, my oldest daughter and grandkids visited Banff & Lake Louise just last month. The gardens at Banff are still beautiful. For the kids, the blue ice in the glacier tunnel was a highpoint.

 

[najer]

The end goal is to have an infrastructure in place that supports water quality, long term tank health, minimizes workload, employs what reefers (and hopefully science) validates, and that allows me to house SPS corals.

At present I’m looking at a custom setup with: socks (maybe even roller) —> skimmer —> return —> refugium (T’d off the return). The triton gods will ~hate that pathway. Good thing is I can always adapt it, and turn things off if need be.

Considering bare bottom or in the least minimal sand. Love wrasses though...

Will get dry rock to prevent any disease introduction and ‘seed’ with a bacterial cocktail that seems to work for all and that hopefully promotes microbial diversity. I’ll do the same for the refugium.

I’ll likely do water changes every 2 weeks at 10-15% or so in the beginning. Integrate ICP testing for meta views and student projects.

Medium flow rate+ for sure.

Medium bioload with a few softies but also a few SPS. Dosing with calcium and alkalinity either 2-part or with the kalkwatzer (spelling is off there!) combo.

LEDs with T5 or maybe just Orphek LEDs.

Would love to get constructive feedback on this!

Sounds like a plan, I hate socks and rollers by the way, just saying.
I bought this leather yesterday, I have been raising my nutrient export recently.

 

[Subsea]

@najer
Very nice leather. Wow! What is the orange finger like thing to the left of the leather. While on the color orange, what is the orange Bush two doors to the right?

 

[najer]

 

[najer]

@najer
Very nice leather. Wow! What is the orange finger like thing to the left of the leather. While on the color orange, what is the orange Bush two doors to the right?

To the left is a very sulky devil's hand and to the right is one of my dendros.

 

[najer]

Led only this morning.

 

[Subsea]

To the left is a very sulky devil's hand and to the right is one of my dendros.

How did you get the Devil to tun Orange?

I set up my first marine aquarium as I attended Texas Maritime Academy in the Fall of 1971. I collected NSW on an incoming tide and harvested CurlyQ anemone from rocks on jetties in Galveston. They were translucent and some what flesh colored, not hardly bright like the ones at a LFS. When I inquired with the owner, he laughed and showed me four tanks with brightly colored water from food dye. I asked how long did they stay bright and he said after 10 days they would loose their color. So what do the customers think about the fading colors. For $1, I exchange their washed out ones for bright ones.

There is marketing wisdom connected to this.

 

[najer]

How did you get the Devil to tun Orange?

I set up my first marine aquarium as I attended Texas Maritime Academy in the Fall of 1971. I collected NSW on an incoming tide and harvested CurlyQ anemone from rocks on jetties in Galveston. They were translucent and some what flesh colored, not hardly bright like the ones at a LFS. When I inquired with the owner, he laughed and showed me four tanks with brightly colored water from food dye. I asked how long did they stay bright and he said after 10 days they would loose their color. So what do the customers think about the fading colors. For $1, I exchange their washed out ones for bright ones.

There is marketing wisdom connected to this.

IF I get my new system up and running there will be a tray for softies and gorgs but all trays will have large leathers in.
It has always been that colour since I got it.

 

[ectoaesthetics]

Thanks, appreciate the candid insights.

I’m reading that some reefers are struggling with refugiums as a primary/sole nutrient export pathway and more so from a nuisance algae perspective - both in the sump and display tank. Any experience or tips in this regard?

There are a number of reasons for the struggle. One is not using a big enough refugium for the size of tank. Two is using a weak light source. Three is poorly choosing macro. I am a huge fan of a chaeto or dragons breath fuge (other algae can go asexual and cause problems. This used to be a major complaint before chaeto became all the rage). The last is that junk builds up in the chaeto. It can become a nutrient trap. Every water chance I shake the stuff off in the water change bucket to “rinse” it. Yes I loose some pods... but I have plenty.

I can not recommend a fuge enough! Great way to remove nutrients, add food to the tank, increase water volume, and increase pH at night. Pretty big wins all the way around. For myself I have found that the benefits have well outweighed the drawbacks. It should also be noted that I NO longer keep sand or substrate in my fuge. I just found it to be a HUGE pain to keep clean. I totally get the benefits of mud or a fine sand bed back there... but it was a pain and I have not found that I missed out on anything by removing it. I also keep water flow slow back there. I am debating adding little plastic baskets (think strawberry or tomato baskets) of rubble back there for pods, easy to shake clean, easy for sponges to grow in (providing you don’t remove them to shake them). Seen people do it. Love the idea... but have no personal experience.

 

[Ross Petersen]

There are a number of reasons for the struggle. One is not using a big enough refugium for the size of tank. Two is using a weak light source. Three is poorly choosing macro. I am a huge fan of a chaeto or dragons breath fuge (other algae can go asexual and cause problems. This used to be a major complaint before chaeto became all the rage). The last is that junk builds up in the chaeto. It can become a nutrient trap. Every water chance I shake the stuff off in the water change bucket to “rinse” it. Yes I loose some pods... but I have plenty.

I can not recommend a fuge enough! Great way to remove nutrients, add food to the tank, increase water volume, and increase pH at night. Pretty big wins all the way around. For myself I have found that the benefits have well outweighed the drawbacks. It should also be noted that I NO longer keep sand or substrate in my fuge. I just found it to be a HUGE pain to keep clean. I totally get the benefits of mud or a fine sand bed back there... but it was a pain and I have not found that I missed out on anything by removing it. I also keep water flow slow back there. I am debating adding little plastic baskets (think strawberry or tomato baskets) of rubble back there for pods, easy to shake clean, easy for sponges to grow in (providing you don’t remove them to shake them). Seen people do it. Love the idea... but have no personal experience.

Indeed, it's pretty apparent that refugiums are high-impact for a variety of reasons - especially as someone who also teaches environmental science.

BRS made a similar comment to me with respect to the chaeto balls clogging up with macronutrients and needing a shake-off rather frequently. This is one argument for having a mechanical filter before a refugium - which many successful reefers do (against the Triton doctrine). Skimmers only remove a fraction of the water in their chamber anyway, right?

I guess having healthy water flow through the refugium could also mitigate clump from building up. Any thoughts on this?

There's a lengthy thread on here from a well-known reefer (and others) who have had frustrations with the triton method creating nuisance algae in their display tank despite using approaches that should promote refugium algae outcompeting tank algae that you allude to.

I'll be adding a refugium undoubtedly - as big as I can get, with a skimmer and filter sock (or roller) for removing the big chunks. Against the grain indeed.

 

[ectoaesthetics]

I honestly prefer slower flow. I get a much happier pod population. This is especially true as I add T Cali pods pretty consistently -since I culture them in my yard. I think it is much easier to just shake the ball of chaeto out. The filter or socks might help before the fuge but the fuge itself will produce a ton of detritus... there are just hundreds of pods pooping all day/night long in there.

 

[Ross Petersen]

I honestly prefer slower flow. I get a much happier pod population. This is especially true as I add T Cali pods pretty consistently -since I culture them in my yard. I think it is much easier to just shake the ball of chaeto out. The filter or socks might help before the fuge but the fuge itself will produce a ton of detritus... there are just hundreds of pods pooping all day/night long in there.

This is valuable insight - much appreciated

 

[BestMomEver]

Thanks, appreciate the candid insights.

I’m reading that some reefers are struggling with refugiums as a primary/sole nutrient export pathway and more so from a nuisance algae perspective - both in the sump and display tank. Any experience or tips in this regard?

I tried to set up a makeshift refugium in my 60 cube by putting a freshwater breeding box full of macroalgae in my sump. I stuck a light on it and let it go. The chaeto didn’t grow but hair algae took over one section of the sump. It served the same purpose. Algae was in the sump.... never in the tank. Nutrient export the natural way. I left it there.... kinda looked cool.

 

[Dom]

I think that simplicity is the key and that the more complex your system is, the more complicated it is to maintain.

Personally, my success has come with the use of a sump, which contains a refugium, with Chaeto and a protein skimmer. I think the order of the chambers is important.

For example, my skimmer is in my return chamber. I found that placing it BEFORE the refugium stripped many of the nutrients the the refugium would consume.

In the end, I rely on faithful, weekly water changes to replenish elements such as Calcium, Magnesium and such. My growth rate is slower, but that's okay since I don't want things to become overly complicated.

 

[Ross Petersen]

I think that simplicity is the key and that the more complex your system is, the more complicated it is to maintain.

Personally, my success has come with the use of a sump, which contains a refugium, with Chaeto and a protein skimmer. I think the order of the chambers is important.

For example, my skimmer is in my return chamber. I found that placing it BEFORE the refugium stripped many of the nutrients the the refugium would consume.

In the end, I rely on faithful, weekly water changes to replenish elements such as Calcium, Magnesium and such. My growth rate is slower, but that's okay since I don't want things to become overly complicated.

Thanks - definitely important considerations. Still finalizing my plans with simplicity and ~low maintenance paramount.

Evaluating the merit of a roller filter (e.g., no more socks, keeps the sump clean, crystal-clear water, etc.). I would likely run a bean animal overflow with about ~70% of the water flowing through the roller and the remaining water feeding the refugium. As the refugium largely uses small molecules (e.g., nitrates, phosphates, amino acids) that aren't filtered out by the roller in full, this should, in theory, work well.

We will see!