- Rethinking "methods" in the reef game -

[Ross Petersen]

Greetings!

I'm returning to the reef game after a ~15-year hiatus, having had a tank in graduate school (biochemistry). Wow has the game changed - for the better it appears. With that said... there's almost too much information out there! The more I research (6 months counting), the more I realize this fascinating world is evolving, subjective, muddy, and super challenging. I have a few questions as I start designing a new custom tank and the contradictory feedback starts to pile up.

I've done a lot of research on equipment and water chemistry, and I've concluded that a roller filter, refugium, and protein skimmer could synergistically help to achieve water keeping (alongside some basic dosing - TBD, likely just alkalinity, Ca, and Mg + water changes). I've messaged reputable reefers who confirm this. However, others have told me that I "have to pick a method" before I get started. In this example, the argument is that roller filters conflict with refugiums (I might argue this based on correspondence with some solid reefers...). And perhaps on a more meta-level.. that methods are mutually exclusive. With all this said...

If you were going to start fresh, in a nutshell, what tools and approaches would you use? What has worked well and minimized work for you?

Kind thanks - loving this community.
RP

 

[Hot2na]

Jaubert plenum method has worked consistently well for me over the yrs..Once established it's pretty much bullet proof..
I am keeping 2 of the most difficult anemone specimens alive using this method..
It's not for everyone..not for the stick head SPS fans either...but if you like a nice mixed low maintenance reef - I'd look into it.

 

[Jase4224]

The BRS YouTube channel has recently done a series called the BRS/WWC method and I highly recommend it. It’s designed to give results for everyone right up to SPS. Definitely worth watching each episode you would gain a lot!

 

[Paul B]

Whats a roller filter?

 

[Mical]

Whats a roller filter?

These - https://aquarium.bulkreefsupply.com...872315041&isort=score&view=grid&w=Roller&rk=1

To OP, I use refugiums and skimmers and have had good results. I have NOT used roller-mats/filters. I'm also in the "camp" of non filter sock users, let the fuge and skimmer do the filtering.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Greetings!

I'm returning to the reef game after a ~15-year hiatus, having had a tank in graduate school (biochemistry). Wow has the game changed - for the better it appears. With that said... there's almost too much information out there! The more I research (6 months counting), the more I realize this fascinating world is evolving, subjective, muddy, and super challenging. I have a few questions as I start designing a new custom tank and the contradictory feedback starts to pile up.

I've done a lot of research on equipment and water chemistry, and I've concluded that a roller filter, refugium, and protein skimmer could synergistically help to achieve water keeping (alongside some basic dosing - TBD, likely just alkalinity, Ca, and Mg + water changes). I've messaged reputable reefers who confirm this. However, others have told me that I "have to pick a method" before I get started. In this example, the argument is that roller filters conflict with refugiums (I might argue this based on correspondence with some solid reefers...). And perhaps on a more meta-level.. that methods are mutually exclusive. With all this said...

If you were going to start fresh, in a nutshell, what tools and approaches would you use? What has worked well and minimized work for you?

Kind thanks - loving this community.
RP

It first depends on what type of corals you're planning to cultivate and your budget. I've only return since October 2017, and the type of corals I'm trying to cultivate very challenging. Non photo synthetic soft corals.dendronephthya, scleronephthya, mainly. Not much information on setting up filtration, flow and feeding systems out there for these corals. So it's taking me about two years almost to figure out something the seems effective.

@Lasse in Europe, he's one of our members. His setup is a good start to successful reef keeping in my opinion. And of course there's many other members here to.

 

[Big E]

If you sift through all the hype and marketing nothing has changed in the fundamentals in reference to water chemistry and targets.

I started a new Sps frag tank system about 4 years ago. It was Berlin method--- High flow, barebottom, water changes, & a quality skimmer rated for 3-4 times what the manufacturer recommends. I used dead rock I had that was clean..........this was rock I had for years and before I dried it out I put it through a dark period for 3-4 months to purge out any nutrients. I seeded it with a piece of rock that I left in my friends tank for a month or two and also used about 70% aged water from my display.

Nutrients stayed low for a good two years.........as I added fish and corals I ended up having to use some GFO in about year 3.

Over the years I've found out you need very little rock for the nitrogen cycle & some nitrate reduction..........that's about the only difference from the same system I started 20 years ago.

As the tank matures you can decide if you want/need to all all those other dosing, and export tools.

My systems have stayed that simple. My acropora display is 10 years old with this same regime. I started that with some live rock from my old system.

 

[Big E]

It first depends on what type of corals you're planning to cultivate and your budget. I've only return since October 2017, and the type of corals I'm trying to cultivate very challenging. Non photo synthetic soft corals.dendronephthya, scleronephthya, mainly. Not much information on setting up filtration, flow and feeding systems out there. So it's taking me about two years almost to figure out something the seems effective.

@Lasse in Europe, he's one of our members. His setup is a good start to successful reef keeping in my opinion. And of course there's many other members here to.

Not to side track this thread-----

NPS are something I want to try as it's a new challenge. I had a friend that had a very successful NPS tank about 10 or so years ago and he told the me the most challenging part was keeping it clean enough due to the heavy feeding. He had all kinds of companies sending him products wanting him to try them out.

Do you have a tank thread going?

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Not to side track this thread-----

NPS are something I want to try as it's a new challenge. I had a friend that had a very successful NPS tank about 10 or so years ago and he told the me the most challenging part was keeping it clean enough due to the heavy feeding. He had all kinds of companies sending him products wanting him to try them out.

Do you have a tank thread going?

Check my profile. Thanks

 

[Subsea]

@Ross Petersen

Yes to choosing a Method first. Take your pick from successful reefers. I have operated a Jaubert Plenum for 25 years and recently converted to a reverse flow undergravel filter as influenced by @Paul B who is celebrating 47 with this method.

Because you said:

If you were going to start fresh, in a nutshell, what tools and approaches would you use? What has worked well and minimized work for you?

I suggest you emulate nature and look up Tampa Bay Saltwater: The Package.

https://www.tbsaltwater.com/

 

[ScottR]

Not to side track this thread-----

NPS are something I want to try as it's a new challenge. I had a friend that had a very successful NPS tank about 10 or so years ago and he told the me the most challenging part was keeping it clean enough due to the heavy feeding. He had all kinds of companies sending him products wanting him to try them out.

Do you have a tank thread going?

@Jomama inspired me to delve into NPS. I’m keeping some Dendrophyllia and through added feedings, nothing has jumped. NO3 and PO4 remain unchanged.

 

[Big E]

@Jomama inspired me to delve into NPS. I’m keeping some Dendrophyllia and through added feedings, nothing has jumped. NO3 and PO4 remain unchanged.

Lookin good Scott!

I have a fat head dendro colony as well that I've grown and fragged for about 4 years,............I'm speaking more about the sea fans, gorgonians neptheas, ect. that very few people seem to be able to keep long term.

 

[ScottR]

Lookin good Scott!

I have a fat head dendro colony as well that I've grown and fragged for about 4 years,............I'm speaking more about the sea fans, gorgonians neptheas, ect. that very few people seem to be able to keep long term.

They don’t have the mouths like Dendrophyllia do. So they’re harder to feed. I’ve never kept them but a LFS has had them for over year. No one seems to buy. They have red and white gorgonians. And they probably don’t care for them well. But I never see the polyp extension that’d make me buy them. The white ones don’t seem to be bleached because they’re really white and not skeletal looking. These are the non-photosynthetic type. I believe there are photosynthetic type as well. Don’t quote me on that.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

They don’t have the mouths like Dendrophyllia do. So they’re harder to feed. I’ve never kept them but a LFS has had them for over year. No one seems to buy. They have red and white gorgonians. And they probably don’t care for them well. But I never see the polyp extension that’d make me buy them. The white ones don’t seem to be bleached because they’re really white and not skeletal looking. These are the non-photosynthetic type. I believe there are photosynthetic type as well. Don’t quote me on that.

Like these

 

[LoneStarReef]

I don’t have any sort of filter sock (or filter paper) in my sump and I don’t miss it a bit. It is only one more thing to take care of and in my opinion doesn’t really add that much value. My water is crystal clear without anything. For nutrient uptake, I do have a refugium that grows Chaeto like crazy and an oversized skimmer. I feed fairly heavy and don’t worry too much about it. My tank is coming up on two years and I am just now able to grow SPS with some success. Stability is more the key here. I try to automate as much as possible to keep things consistent. However don’t get too caught up in gadgets. Keep it as simple as possible. Automate only when needed.

In my opinion, start with all live rock and a strong clean up crew. Tampa Bay Saltwater has incredible man made rock that they dumped in the ocean for a while. I have heard nothing but great things about their rock. Wishing I would have started with their rock. Expensive but well worth avoiding the headache of starting with dry.

A few of my opinions! Hope it helps.

 

[Sm51498]

I had years of success using the Berlin method (lots of live rock, heavy skimming and light bio load). I've discovered that after a few years the skimmer isn't even necessary but go very slow, maturity can take years but once you achieve it this system is pretty much bullet proof.

 

[EmdeReef]

I don’t think you have to dogmatically follow any method. Your time investment now, in 6 months, busy periods etc. will be the most important single factor for everything.

Before deciding what to do you should have an idea of what kind of tank you want to keep. It’s fine to make changes later but it will take more time.

If you’re the type of person who won’t resist adding “just one more fish” but also want to keep sps - you’ll probably going to end up with a more complex system than if you wanted to have an overstocked tank with soft or lps corals. My tanks have always been fairly high nutrient systems, overstocked by some standards, and I like sps - I use a rollermat (and several other nutrient export methods), it helps but it’s no silver bullet. I also keep a refugium and harvest algae weekly. There are very few absolutes in nature and this hobby so keep a healthy dose of skepticism and question statements like “must have to achieve x” in particular.

Best advice is to find someone who has a similar tank to what you would like and then try to replicate what they’re doing. There are some caveats to this, all people are prone to survivorship (success) bias. Even well intentioned people will often overlook a thing or two. In the end you’ll end up with what works for you which may or may not resemble any established method.

 

[ScottR]

Interesting thread all. I love following methods that seem unorthodox. There are more ways than one to running a reef tank. I first ran a SW tank 20 years ago when I was in my teens. I knew nothing. I kept a 100+ gallon tank with ocean rock, tangs, triggers and other things. I had no sump, no skimmer, just a HOB and knew nothing about anything. No fish deaths whatsoever. Never heard of ich, velvet or any of that. Water top offs with Hawaii tap water. Ocean water for WC.

Fast forward a few years, I see everyone runs GFO, huge skimmers (I use now), tons of reactors, QT with copper is commonplace, etc. I feel this hobby has turned into a money machine and a workhorse. Be what it is, I enjoy it but I’m still old school in a lot of ways.

 

[Subsea]

Interesting thread all. I love following methods that seem unorthodox. There are more ways than one to running a reef tank. I first ran a SW tank 20 years ago when I was in my teens. I knew nothing. I kept a 100+ gallon tank with ocean rock, tangs, triggers and other things. I had no sump, no skimmer, just a HOB and knew nothing about anything. No fish deaths whatsoever. Never heard of ich, velvet or any of that. Water top offs with Hawaii tap water. Ocean water for WC.

Fast forward a few years, I see everyone runs GFO, huge skimmers (I use now), tons of reactors, QT with copper is commonplace, etc. I feel this hobby has turned into a money machine and a workhorse. Be what it is, I enjoy it but I’m still old school in a lot of ways.

Scott,
You are not old enough to be “Old School”. You hit the nail on the head when you said , “I feel this hobby has turned into a money machine and a workhorse”.

 

[EmdeReef]

Scott,
You are not old enough to be “Old School”. You hit the nail on the head when you said , “I feel this hobby has turned into a money machine and a workhorse”.

Couldn’t agree more and would add that quality control does not keep up. I suspect there isn’t much of it tbh. Even some supposedly great brands will roll out products with manufacturing defects and never admit it while making reefers pay more to fix the issue...