- Rethinking "methods" in the reef game -

[vetteguy53081]

Interesting thread all. I love following methods that seem unorthodox. There are more ways than one to running a reef tank. I first ran a SW tank 20 years ago when I was in my teens. I knew nothing. I kept a 100+ gallon tank with ocean rock, tangs, triggers and other things. I had no sump, no skimmer, just a HOB and knew nothing about anything. No fish deaths whatsoever. Never heard of ich, velvet or any of that. Water top offs with Hawaii tap water. Ocean water for WC.

Fast forward a few years, I see everyone runs GFO, huge skimmers (I use now), tons of reactors, QT with copper is commonplace, etc. I feel this hobby has turned into a money machine and a workhorse. Be what it is, I enjoy it but I’m still old school in a lot of ways.

I agree on many principles you mentioned. An undergravel filter, 2 powerheads and a heater and let the stocking begin

 

[Ross Petersen]

I don’t think you have to dogmatically follow any method. Your time investment now, in 6 months, busy periods etc. will be the most important single factor for everything.

Before deciding what to do you should have an idea of what kind of tank you want to keep. It’s fine to make changes later but it will take more time.

If you’re the type of person who won’t resist adding “just one more fish” but also want to keep sps - you’ll probably going to end up with a more complex system than if you wanted to have an overstocked tank with soft or lps corals. My tanks have always been fairly high nutrient systems, overstocked by some standards, and I like sps - I use a rollermat (and several other nutrient export methods), it helps but it’s no silver bullet. I also keep a refugium and harvest algae weekly. There are very few absolutes in nature and this hobby so keep a healthy dose of skepticism and question statements like “must have to achieve x” in particular.

Best advice is to find someone who has a similar tank to what you would like and then try to replicate what they’re doing. There are some caveats to this, all people are prone to survivorship (success) bias. Even well intentioned people will often overlook a thing or two. In the end you’ll end up with what works for you which may or may not resemble any established method.

Thanks, appreciate the candid insights.

I’m reading that some reefers are struggling with refugiums as a primary/sole nutrient export pathway and more so from a nuisance algae perspective - both in the sump and display tank. Any experience or tips in this regard?

 

[EmdeReef]

Thanks, appreciate the candid insights.

I’m reading that some reefers are struggling with refugiums as a primary/sole nutrient export pathway and more so from a nuisance algae perspective - both in the sump and display tank. Any experience or tips in this regard?

A properly sized and lit refugium can be the only nutrient export. I run a 300w grow light over mine, unfortunately the way Reefer sumps are built I just don’t think I have enough space for algae to grow so it’s simply not enough to keep up with my overfeeding and bioload.

As far as nuisance algae - I’m annoyed by hair algae which sometimes gets stuck in my skimmer pump. I’ve seen small bits of cheato and ulva in my tank. Neither is difficult to remove but I don’t think it easily takes hold anyway.

Caulerpa can be a bit trickier to remove from a display. It’s also one of my favorite but I struggled to find any until I found @reefcleaners . Now I have 3 species of caulerpa in my refugium. I absolutely don’t worry about it going sexual as worst case scenario it would make my skimmer go crazy and maybe have a slight dip in O2. Over the years I’ve never heard anyone having any serious issues after it happens (and it’s rare). Small tanks with poorly pruned caulerpa (lots of it) could maybe see more serious problems.

C. Prolifera (which I can’t find for sale anywhere and some other species sometimes go rogue ant take hold in the display causing issues. Not that common and if you have any rabbitfish it will likely eradicate it or keep in check before it can become a problem.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I still believe in the benefits of filter socks and their value in trapping small micron particles. You just have to be religious in switching out the socks.
Dr. Juice works in freshwater aquariums, not so much in salt. We have to stick to essentials (CA, KH, Mag) and water changes will restore the remaining needs of corals.

 

[FishDoc]

No, it's not caveman style, it's trying to enlighten the young ones, reminding them how the hobby has advanced. Heee

Did you have to walk uphill both ways to buy fish? Jk.

 

[FishDoc]

I agree on many principles you mentioned. An undergravel filter, 2 powerheads and a heater and let the stocking begin

UG filters? What year is it? I feel like most try to do to much to fast for a UG to keep up. That being said, it does hold a solid place in the filtration world...

 

[fish farmer]

Thanks, appreciate the candid insights.

I’m reading that some reefers are struggling with refugiums as a primary/sole nutrient export pathway and more so from a nuisance algae perspective - both in the sump and display tank. Any experience or tips in this regard?

I believe your milage may vary. I see a lot of folks start on setting up a refuge as a ways to keep nutrients in control before they have any nutrients to control. My tank was a GHA mess a year ago (old rock...high nitrates and phosphates). I added a cheap light and chaeto and it drastically dropped my nitrates from 30 pmm to 5 pmm over several months. Phosphates dropped as well, but I will more than likely run media in a reactor to maintain a preferred level. Of course other factors like frequent WC and new CUC helped as well. I don't grow chaeto as fast now and it isn't my only source of export. I also run a skimmer and do 20% monthly WC's and have a light fish load.

 

[vetteguy53081]

UG filters? What year is it? I feel like most try to do to much to fast for a UG to keep up. That being said, it does hold a solid place in the filtration world...

Under Gravel = UG

 

[Paul B]

I am as old school as you can get. The day this hobby started I was standing on the dock waiting for them to open the nets.
Me and Noah picked through the living stuff and threw out the trilobites and Godzilla Larvae. I cycled my tank with Celacanths. No, they are not extinct.

 

[dopey]

Probably the least experienced one here...

I've always felt maintaining a water change schedule the rest sorts itself out. Aside from introducing a pest or infection from a new inhabitant. Also using good quality water.


I guess that puts me under the Berlin method. Also keep a very low fish stock, and primarily softy and lps corals. So both a beginner and an "easy" tank

I agree with what someone else said.. ultimately the time you're willing to invest over a sustained period of times matter. All methods require time and all are unforgiving in various ways if you begin to neglect.

I wonder if any given method is more or less forgiving *when* life gets in the way and you neglect the tank for a while?

 

[Subsea]

I am as old school as you can get. The day this hobby started I was standing on the dock waiting for them to open the nets.
Me and Noah picked through the living stuff and threw out the trilobites and Godzilla Larvae. I cycled my tank with Celacanths. No, they are not extinct.

How does one spell UG filter. I am Pre-Cambrian School and here to enjoy this hobby and not stress over it. Vendors have made this hobby unnecessarily expensive and hobbiest have bought into it. With no disrespect to OP, you have embraced an automated filter sock that cost several hundred dollars. I have been skimmerless for 30 years and I don’t wear socks in my refugium. I have growout tanks that are 10 years old with no refugium, no skimmer and no socks.

I mimiked @Paul B and 18 months ago, I set up 120G reverse flow undergravel filter with a 40G
refugium. With 30 minutes maintenance a week this tank maintains itself.

Build Thread - Wet & Salty for Christmas 2017.

Seven month old 120G tank with reverse flow undergravel filter on top with 40G cryptic refugium on bottom.

www.reef2reef.com

1

Ten year old growout tank.

 

[Subsea]

@Ross Petersen

Because you mentioned advanced degree in biochemistry, as a Marine Engineer and hobbiest of 48 years, I will address the degree. The average hobbiest, as influenced by vendors who target components in an EcoSystem that has evolved into a wonderfully complex interconnected & dependent ecosystem that is holistic in Nature, with crosstalk between bacteria, algae and coral.

Just Google Coral Holobiont

https://www.whoi.edu/fileserver.do?id=196446&pt=2&p=15756

When algae, bacteria and coral can adjust their dna expression in response to changing conditions hobbiest should not be surprised that treatments with chemicals doesn’t always produce expected results.

Let’s talk about your protein skimmer or foam fractionator. Ken Felderman articles at Advanced Aquaria on carbon dosing give much insight on the science.

I will simplify and paraphrase: skimmate is mostly bacteria. Bactetia are food for hungry mouths in a reef tank. Protein skimmers perform nutrient export. Considering that bacteria move nutrients from one tropic level to another, on the Natural Reef that amounts to more than 60 of food ingested by coral.

Google “microbial highway” to see what you are removing with a protein skimmer. To further illustrate the point, amino acids are produced when bacteria act on protein (food).

I will stop at this point. Good fortune on your journey into a marvelous hobby.

 

[Paul B]

. With 30 minutes maintenance a week this tank maintains itself.

What do people do when they do all that maintenance? I clean the glass every few days and ,well, thats about it.
When the skimmer tube gets slightly clogged I clean it, maybe 2 minutes every 2 weeks or so and I clean my algae filter when algae starts to fall off of it. Maybe every month or so and that takes about 5 minutes.

I wouldn't know what other maintenance to do. I do change some water maybe 5 times a year, sometimes less and if something looks like it will croak I may test the water.
Adding calk and alk takes maybe a minute.

I must be doing something very wrong.

Oh wait, I forgot, I do have to clean those stupid Korilia pumps. I hate those things and when they croak I will throw them out. My old pumps lasted 40 years and I almost never had to clean them.
This thing ran my skimmer for about 30 years and it still works, never cleaned it.

 

[fish farmer]

Love those Danner Mag drive pumps....I have four of them in service.

 

[Rick.45cal]

Welcome to the vortex, I’m here to tell you you’ve crossed the event horizon so resistance is futile! (There’s cookies at the bottom!)

Methodologies are great, but it’s best to learn to be in tune with your system. Learn all you can from everyone you encounter (good and bad). Often the hardest thing to learn in this is to not be impulsive with ANY decisions, even if it’s an emergency.

 

[Ross Petersen]

@Ross Petersen

Because you mentioned advanced degree in biochemistry, as a Marine Engineer and hobbiest of 48 years, I will address the degree. The average hobbiest, as influenced by vendors who target components in an EcoSystem that has evolved into a wonderfully complex interconnected & dependent ecosystem that is holistic in Nature, with crosstalk between bacteria, algae and coral.

Just Google Coral Holobiont

https://www.whoi.edu/fileserver.do?id=196446&pt=2&p=15756

When algae, bacteria and coral can adjust their dna expression in response to changing conditions hobbiest should not be surprised that treatments with chemicals doesn’t always produce expected results.

Let’s talk about your protein skimmer or foam fractionator. Ken Felderman articles at Advanced Aquaria on carbon dosing give much insight on the science.

I will simplify and paraphrase: skimmate is mostly bacteria. Bactetia are food for hungry mouths in a reef tank. Protein skimmers perform nutrient export. Considering that bacteria move nutrients from one tropic level to another, on the Natural Reef that amounts to more than 60 of food ingested by coral.

Google “microbial highway” to see what you are removing with a protein skimmer. To further illustrate the point, amino acids are produced when bacteria act on protein (food).

I will stop at this point. Good fortune on your journey into a marvelous hobby.

Thanks, and likewise.

I would hypothesize the window on reefkeeping that is to be opened in the coming years relates to microbial biodiversity. ‘You are what you eat’ is backed by strong microbiome research in humans... and surely some research in the marine biology world.

Things like tank collapses or old tank syndrome that occur when ICP tests are often stable is and indication that small life, bacteria, and viruses are at work.

 

[Hemmdog]

I do a hybrid triton & Red Sea Method. It works well for me. I haven’t done a water change since April and nutrients are sitting at 5 NO3 0.02 PO4. No socks, just big good skimmer, fuge on reverse light cycle, alk & cal on dosers, Carbon dose(Nopox) an hour after the first feeding, I manual dose trace elements based off calc consumption(triton ICP-test quarterly to ensure I’m in range), then amino acids(reef energy a&b) at lights out daily.

 

[Subsea]

Thanks, and likewise.

I would hypothesize the window on reefkeeping that is to be opened in the coming years relates to microbial biodiversity. ‘You are what you eat’ is backed by strong microbiome research in humans... and surely some research in the marine biology world.

Things like tank collapses or old tank syndrome that occur when ICP tests are often stable is and indication that small life, bacteria, and viruses are at work.

@Ross Petersen

I suspect you may be a “night owl” as I am an “early bird”.

Kudos to your connection of lack of microbial diversity and old tank syndrome. I relate the analogy to a “climax forest” with a “dominant species” as “last man standing”.

Enjoy your kayaking vacation. What part of the country are you doing this?

 

[Paul B]

This pump here on my old surface skimmer (Yeah, I know!) Is still running and I was a young man when I got it maybe in the 80s. I had to tweek the shaft a little but it runs as well as a marathon runner from Nigeria. The ones who finish the marathons.

 

[2Sunny]

I second Ed's comments and those of a couple others. K.I.S.S. = Berlin Method = live rock, strong lighting, and a skimmer, and if you want to get fancy you can carbon dose and supplement with a 2 part solution (Bacterial Counts in a Reef Aquarium). 20 years and several redo's on my reef and my tank has never been cleaner nor the corals happier than they are today with just a skimmer and daily carbon dosing and nothing else. Here's my tank today, and another shot from 2011 when it was at it's zenith.