Roller mats and the need for refugium

[forestsofkelp]

I am in the process of planning a sump replacement for 180g mixed reef.
My current tank runs (P 0.03 N 0) with a refugium I have to harvest every 2-3 months.
The refugium is a harbor for aiptasia etc.

The sump/new undertank setup I am looking at has no room for a refugium, but it does have a roller mat. I am a much bigger fan of mechanical filtration (although I currently don't use any. I wouldn't be any fun without some hypocrisy)

While I feel a refugium is helpful and necessary, I don't enjoy taking care of one. My understanding is the roller mats do such a great job of removing waste and particulate matter, that a refugium is often not necccessary as there isn't enough P and N for chaeto etc.

Does anyone have any input on whether refugiums are still necessary for chemical control with roller mats? . I'm just wondering if I still need to....

I understand all their other beneficial roles, been using them for years (my current tank/fuge is just chaeto, no mud/sand/rock/copepods) my question is regarding N and P control only.

edited for spelling and punctuation

 

[Fish Fan]

You could also consider an Algae Turf Scrubber (ATS) An ATS is something of a more contained refugium. It doesn't typically grow as many copepods and other things, but it does grow a type of hair algae inside of it. That algae does a great job at removing nutrients, and although you would still have to remove some of the algae from time to time, I don't think you'll have the problem with the Aptasia for example.

The Santa Monica Surf ATS is quite popular, but there are others, and even DIY solutions.

Good luck!

 

[edsbeaker]

I think the roller mat and refugium have different functions, so I don’t think it’s a matter of not needing the refugium because you have a roller mat. Having said that, if your phosphate levels stay at a good level you just may not need a refugium. I had an IM 75 gallon that did not have an area for a refugium, so only ran a skimmer and filter socks without a problem. I didn’t have an issue with nitrates or phosphates.

If you have a reasonable bio load, not overfeeding, and keeping up with your water changes, you may find this works for you, as well. If your phosphates start to get out of hand, you could consider an algae turf scrubber like @Fish Fan suggested. I have the Santa Monica Surf on my new setup and it is so easy to maintain, is very small in size, and just floats on the water surface in the sump or the display tank. It’s another option if you don’t want to mess with a refugium, but find that you need a bit of help with your phosphates.

 

[BryanM]

I'd third the idea of a Surf unit from Santa Monica.... it took mine 6 weeks to really start growing, and I just have to harvest once a week or so.

I find it to be less maintenance than a roller matt honestly

 

[exnisstech]

I've found fuges a great place for little creatures to reproduce and populate but they've never done anything to reduce nutrients in my tanks. Ive actually moved away from chaeto fuges and run socks, a cryptic zone along with an ATS in my 330g . My nutrients run what many consider high, NO3 34 PO4 0.85 . Corals look happy and i have no nuisance algae so I don't worry about them. The ATS a surf 4x and it did stall a while back and hanna ULR phosphate was flashing 0.9 so I have no idea how high they really were. After dosing some chaeto grow it's growing algae again. That said I've never had PO4 less than 0.3 since starting the tank 1.5 years ago. I have quite a few fish including 8 tangs and I feed several times a day so I'm sure that's part of the reason.
I run a reefmat 500 on my reefer 300 65g total. No skimmer and no fuge, just the roller. I dose AFR but add nothing else. I also do very minimal water changes of 2-4g every 7-10 days so I can vacuum detritus. This is an acro tank and nutrients have always run low on their own with no intervention on my part. Occasionally when testing zero I'll dose some ammonium to raise them. Sometimes I'll even shut the roller down and let it overflow at night.
EDIT The acro tank only has 4 fish but two are tangs I feed several times a day. I feed mostly frozen.

 

[forestsofkelp]

I've found fuges a great place for little creatures to reproduce and populate but they've never done anything to reduce nutrients in my tanks. Ive actually moved away from chaeto fuges and run socks, a cryptic zone along with an ATS in my 330g . My nutrients run what many consider high, NO3 34 PO4 0.85 . Corals look happy and i have no nuisance algae so I don't worry about them. The ATS a surf 4x and it did stall a while back and hanna ULR phosphate was flashing 0.9 so I have no idea how high they really were. After dosing some chaeto grow it's growing algae again. That said I've never had PO4 less than 0.3 since starting the tank 1.5 years ago. I have quite a few fish including 8 tangs and I feed several times a day so I'm sure that's part of the reason.
I run a reefmat 500 on my reefer 300 65g total. No skimmer and no fuge, just the roller. I dose AFR but add nothing else. I also do very minimal water changes of 2-4g every 7-10 days so I can vacuum detritus. This is an acro tank and nutrients have always run low on their own with no intervention on my part. Occasionally when testing zero I'll dose some ammonium to raise them. Sometimes I'll even shut the roller down and let it overflow at night.
EDIT The acro tank only has 4 fish but two are tangs I feed several times a day. I feed mostly frozen.

If I am going to grow chaeto, i'd rather have a proper refugium for little buddies and not an ATS; I think it's the same amount of work. My current fuge is just hard to access and I dont want to deal with one anymore.

Sounds like your second tank is able to maintain low nutrients with a mat and a similar bioload to mine.

I hear the rollers can be a PITA but I am looking at a nice one and I dont mind swapping it out every month or two.

 

[exnisstech]

I love my reefmat. I'm not a clean freak so I don't pull the unit out and clean it. I just staple a new roll onto the end of the old roll, advance it, cut it of at the staples and start it on the tube and done. I can swap a roll in 5 minutes. I tried a klir 7' and it was a total pita to replace a roll so I pulled it after the first roll ran out. The only advantage I saw to the klir was it can be placed in a sock holder and doesn't have to be plumbed.

 

[Bruttall]

I'm a huge fan of no mechanical filtration. Sponges and socks always seemed to trap and foster high nitrate levels.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

I am in the process of planning a sump replacement for 180g mixed reef.
My current tank runs (P 0.03 N 0) with a refugium I have to harvest every 2-3 months.
The refugium is a harbor for aiptasia etc.

The sump/new undertank setup I am looking at has no room for a refugium, but it does have a roller mat. I am a much bigger fan of mechanical filtration (although I currently don't use any. I wouldn't be any fun without some hypocrisy)

While I feel a refugium is helpful and necessary, I don't enjoy taking care of one. My understanding is the roller mats do such a great job of removing waste and particulate matter, that a refugium is often not necccessary as there isn't enough P and N for chaeto etc.

Does anyone have any input on whether refugiums are still necessary for chemical control with roller mats? . I'm just wondering if I still need to....

I understand all their other beneficial roles, been using them for years (my current tank/fuge is just chaeto, no mud/sand/rock/copepods) my question is regarding N and P control only.

edited for spelling and punctuation

Great topic. I’m kinda in a similar place.
I have 400g display 160g sump 2 GEO algae reactors 2 RS 1200 roller mats - works great. Then -
I added 50g low boy. Hated the low boy so I had Joe build me a 106g display/frag set up. In prep for that I had another sump made 80g. This 106g will flow through a RS 500 roller. The 2 sumps are connected by 2 - 1.5” pipe.

I had the second remote sump made so that 24x36 could be a fuge if I wanted. I have been slowly removing sand from my system but fear the biome shift. So I also planned on siphoning a lot of sand to this remote sump and get a 5” sand bed as the base for the fuge.

I don’t grow a lot of algae in my reactors, lots of slime. I’m going to scuff up the material it grows on and see if that helps. Nutrients are 11/.08. I feed frozen 5 times a day and dry 7-8. I also dose ammonia. So, I don’t have a clue what to do either. Should I stay or should I go ? (To a fuge)

 

[forestsofkelp]

Great topic. I’m kinda in a similar place.
I have 400g display 160g sump 2 GEO algae reactors 2 RS 1200 roller mats - works great. Then -
I added 50g low boy. Hated the low boy so I had Joe build me a 106g display/frag set up. In prep for that I had another sump made 80g. This 106g will flow through a RS 500 roller. The 2 sumps are connected by 2 - 1.5” pipe.

I had the second remote sump made so that 24x36 could be a fuge if I wanted. I have been slowly removing sand from my system but fear the biome shift. So I also planned on siphoning a lot of sand to this remote sump and get a 5” sand bed as the base for the fuge.

I don’t grow a lot of algae in my reactors, lots of slime. I’m going to scuff up the material it grows on and see if that helps. Nutrients are 11/.08. I feed frozen 5 times a day and dry 7-8. I also dose ammonia. So, I don’t have a clue what to do either. Should I stay or should I go ? (To a fuge)

i still haven’t figured this out because i think no one knows for certain/theres many ways to skin a cat.

If you’re an old school reefer or tried and true systems, a refugium is great; export macros, grow pods, make a cryptic zone, balance ph etc…

If you try the newer methods of the super clean reef, a fleece roller keeps your nutrients at basically zero (from what I read). Barely anything to even skim. So you probably could go no refugium, but then you lose out on some of its benefits. On the flip side your tank will look nice and clean. So yeah, I don’t really know. I don’t even know if you can run a reef mat AND a refugium as there might be nothing for the macros to use.

Sand I think is a harbor for waste, I run barely any sand and it’s great. DSB are nice if you can maintain one.

I think in an ideal world a separately plumbed easy to access refugium would be what I want, but I don’t have space for that.

The surf units are nice but they look to be the same amount of work as a refugium (eg not much).

I’ll be honest part of the appeal of the roller systems is a totally detritus free sump

 

[cgoochce]

I am in the process of planning a sump replacement for 180g mixed reef.
My current tank runs (P 0.03 N 0) with a refugium I have to harvest every 2-3 months.
The refugium is a harbor for aiptasia etc.

The sump/new undertank setup I am looking at has no room for a refugium, but it does have a roller mat. I am a much bigger fan of mechanical filtration (although I currently don't use any. I wouldn't be any fun without some hypocrisy)

While I feel a refugium is helpful and necessary, I don't enjoy taking care of one. My understanding is the roller mats do such a great job of removing waste and particulate matter, that a refugium is often not necccessary as there isn't enough P and N for chaeto etc.

Does anyone have any input on whether refugiums are still necessary for chemical control with roller mats? . I'm just wondering if I still need to....

I understand all their other beneficial roles, been using them for years (my current tank/fuge is just chaeto, no mud/sand/rock/copepods) my question is regarding N and P control only.

edited for spelling and punctuation

From my experience with my 90-gallon Red Sea G2, here’s what I’ve found. It didn’t come with the roller mat, only spots for two filter socks, which I had to change every couple of days. To cut back on maintenance, I added the ReefMat. Right now, I’m running the ReefMat alongside chaeto in my sump. The chaeto grows like crazy, so I occasionally need to clean it up and trim away any dead or discolored sections.
Overall, the ReefMat and chaeto work really well together. The main advantage of the ReefMat is that I only need to change it about once every couple of months, while I usually clean out or thin the chaeto every six months or so to keep everything clean and flowing smoothly. Hope this helps!

 

[forestsofkelp]

Thanks. I’m still in the fence. If I get a roller mat/upgrade sump I’ll probably lose my refugium.

 

[BryanM]

Thanks. I’m still in the fence. If I get a roller mat/upgrade sump I’ll probably lose my refugium.

there's 1000 ways to address reef tank filtration. You've got to do what you think is right for you.

For me I didn't want the sprawling nature of a refugium, but I did love the idea of growing an algae that might outcompete all other algaes, so I went with an ATS.

So far I'm loving it. And its 2 minutes 2x a week to deal with, tops. And I don't have to buy rolls for a mat.