Seemingly healthy mandarin now swimming in spirals, has lost control of its balance/buoyancy.

therootcause

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Healthy mandarin, eats pods, pellets, frozen etc.

About three hours ago I noticed it was “leaning” to the right. Now I saw it swimming in spirals in the water column - highly unusual.

I have it in a basket for observation and it can’t seem to stay upright. If it’s a swim bladder problem, can I intervene with a syringe or other implement?

I have several types of medications and tools but I’m not a fish expert. Looking for suggestions.

***UPDATED YOUTUBE LINK TO MANDARIN SWIMMING***

IMG_2647.jpeg
 
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vetteguy53081

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I can’t open video but from lookssappears to be moribund. Normally they are thin when in trouble but this fish is not skinny’
I don’t see signs of aggression but check and assure both ammonia and nitrate as well as temperature has not become elevated and salinity has not become low
Please post you tube video if possible
 
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therootcause

therootcause

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I can’t open video but from lookssappears to be moribund. Normally they are thin when in trouble but this fish is not skinny’
I don’t see signs of aggression but check and assure both ammonia and nitrate as well as temperature has not become elevated and salinity has not become low
Please post you tube video if possible


Thank you.

Mandarin Video Link

As of 20 mins ago…
Salinity 1.024
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 20
Phosphate .1
pH 8.37
Temp 78.5
Alk 8.37
Calcium 460
ORP 282
 

vetteguy53081

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Thank you.

Mandarin Video Link

As of 20 mins ago…
Salinity 1.024
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 20
Phosphate .1
pH 8.37
Temp 78.5
Alk 8.37
Calcium 460
ORP 282
Unfortunately this fish is moribund and there is nothing I can recommend to perk it up- at this stage, it will not eat or swim normal
Wish I could suggest something more positive
 

vetteguy53081

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Jay Hemdal

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Healthy mandarin, eats pods, pellets, frozen etc.

About three hours ago I noticed it was “leaning” to the right. Now I saw it swimming in spirals in the water column - highly unusual.

I have it in a basket for observation and it can’t seem to stay upright. If it’s a swim bladder problem, can I intervene with a syringe or other implement?

I have several types of medications and tools but I’m not a fish expert. Looking for suggestions.

***UPDATED YOUTUBE LINK TO MANDARIN SWIMMING***

IMG_2647.jpeg
That is so weird - the fish has good color and is really fat. Usually when we hear a mandarin is moribund and spinning, they are emaciated and really pale.

I’m not sure what is going on - like something injured or it went into shock for some reason. I would just keep the lights dim and see if it improves overnight.

Jay
 
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therootcause

therootcause

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Unfortunately this fish is moribund and there is nothing I can recommend to perk it up- at this stage, it will not eat or swim normal
Wish I could suggest something more positive

That is so weird - the fish has good color and is really fat. Usually when we hear a mandarin is moribund and spinning, they are emaciated and really pale.

I’m not sure what is going on - like something injured or it went into shock for some reason. I would just keep the lights dim and see if it improves overnight.

Jay


Thank you both. I will cover the area where the fish is being kept to dim the lighting for the next few hours until lights go out.

Here is some additional information:

The tank is a Waterbox 180.5

I’ve had the fish since 7/26. It was in a friends aquarium for 2-3 years.

Tankmates:
Sailfin Tang
Dwarf Pigmy Angel
Molly
Pajama Cardinal x7
Neon goby
Starrry Blenny (ADDED 8/23/23 along with two of the pajamas)
Clowns x 3

I started dosing Kalkwasser (750mL) at a saturated concentration a few nights ago with a Kamoer X1 doser from midnight to 10am. The dosing had no effect on salinity and raised dKH by .1 in a 48 hour period.

This morning I noticed one of the cardinals with a peppermint shrimp hanging out of its mouth. At that point I began wondering about the aggression of the new blenny. I suspect that it may have murdered the shrimp and also injured the mandarin. I may never know but it’s my suspicion at this point.
 
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vetteguy53081

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Thank you both. I will cover the area where the fish is being kept to dim the lighting for the next few hours until lights go out.

Here is some additional information:

The tank is a Waterbox 180.5

I’ve had the fish since 7/26. It was in a friends aquarium for 2-3 years.

Tankmates:
Sailfin Tang
Dwarf Pigmy Angel
Molly
Pajama Cardinal x7
Neon goby
Starrry Blenny (ADDED 8/23/23 along with two of the pajamas)
Clowns x 3

I started dosing Kalkwasser (750mL) at a saturated concentration a few nights ago with a Kamoer X1 doser from midnight to 10am. The dosing had no effect on salinity and raised dKH by .1 in a 48 hour period.

This morning I noticed one of the cardinals with a peppermint shrimp hanging out of its mouth. At that point I began wondering about the aggression of the new blenny. I suspect that it may have murdered the shrimp and also injured the mandarin. I may never know but it’s my suspicion at this point.
Very possible and through aggression could have swam into object obtaining impact injury
Many possibilities
 
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therootcause

therootcause

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@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081 The mandarin remains in the same condition this morning, approximately 18 hours after the initial discovery that it was moving in a strange manner.

It has not eaten any of the pellets given last night to test feeding abilities.

I‘ve given no medications and I continue to suspect an injury. The swimming direction and pattern of the spiral is not random as it is consistently clockwise and the fish remains curved to the right as if it has a spinal injury.

I’m thinking about survivability vs. suffering and weighing my options.
 

Jay Hemdal

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@Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081 The mandarin remains in the same condition this morning, approximately 18 hours after the initial discovery that it was moving in a strange manner.

It has not eaten any of the pellets given last night to test feeding abilities.

I‘ve given no medications and I continue to suspect an injury. The swimming direction and pattern of the spiral is not random as it is consistently clockwise and the fish remains curved to the right as if it has a spinal injury.

I’m thinking about survivability vs. suffering and weighing my options.

I think you're right, the consistent swimming and angle does seem to indicate a spinal injury, sorry.

Jay
 

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Happened to mine. Green spot also, very healthy color and if anything too fat. Someone accidentally scared it, it shot to the back of the tank and came out looking like it had a heart attack or something but ended up swimming like that before the end so maybe he knocked himself silly . What a shame, beautiful fish
 
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therootcause

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G'day reefers. It has been 48 hours since first noticing problems with the fish and it remains alive and unchanged in the quarantine box.

The fish responds to stimulus and it's eyes follow me and other objects. It cannot actively feed but it does attempt to eat food that it stumbles upon accidentally. There is no poop visible in the QT box. All fins are functioning. I can move it to a QT tank for medical treatment or attempt a spinal realignment tonight.

The medications available include API General cure (w/ or w/o focus) and prazipro. Could it be a parasite that is causing neuroligical symptoms?

The spinal realignment would involve a plastic tray with 1" of water. In the tray, two plastic rulers spaced 1/2" apart that require the fish to swim the length of the tray unable to remain curved.

Open to feedback.
 

Jay Hemdal

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G'day reefers. It has been 48 hours since first noticing problems with the fish and it remains alive and unchanged in the quarantine box.

The fish responds to stimulus and it's eyes follow me and other objects. It cannot actively feed but it does attempt to eat food that it stumbles upon accidentally. There is no poop visible in the QT box. All fins are functioning. I can move it to a QT tank for medical treatment or attempt a spinal realignment tonight.

The medications available include API General cure (w/ or w/o focus) and prazipro. Could it be a parasite that is causing neuroligical symptoms?

The spinal realignment would involve a plastic tray with 1" of water. In the tray, two plastic rulers spaced 1/2" apart that require the fish to swim the length of the tray unable to remain curved.

Open to feedback.

Of all the fish diseases, the two that result in similar neurological symptoms are viral and some rare internal protozoans like microsporidians. Neither are treatable except to give supportive care.

I don’t think a spinal realignment will work - any more than it would another vertebrate species. The medical phrase “at first, do no harm” comes to mind.

Jay
 
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I don’t think a spinal realignment will work - any more than it would another vertebrate species. The medical phrase “at first, do no harm” comes to mind.

Jay

Not a fan of chiropractors? Me neither.

I’ll take your thoughts into consideration over the next few hours as I decide next course of action - if any.
 

Boehmtown

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Very similar sounding thing happened to my mandarin, I was not able to save him. Seemed like a heart attack or neurological or possibly like a head injury. I did freshwater dip mine at one point and after it died a dead bristle worm was in the observation box , pale like it went through the dip. Short and thick, i thought at the time maybe he but the head off one (seen him try to eat them before) and it survived and got stuck up inside him. But that seems like a long shot.
 
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therootcause

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Very similar sounding thing happened to my mandarin, I was not able to save him. Seemed like a heart attack or neurological or possibly like a head injury. I did freshwater dip mine at one point and after it died a dead bristle worm was in the observation box , pale like it went through the dip. Short and thick, i thought at the time maybe he but the head off one (seen him try to eat them before) and it survived and got stuck up inside him. But that seems like a long shot.


Thank you. The fish remains alive at this time and I have hatched it a BBS snack for while I'm at work today. I haven't tried any interventions at this time. When observing the fish last night it seemed to spend more time upright but struggled to straighten itself.
 
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therootcause

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9/7/2023 06:00AM log entry: The mandarin is upright and sound asleep this morning. Maybe it's dreaming. I love watching the fish as they sleep, especially one of my clowns that goes full rigor mortis on the sand bed. It’s hard to tell if the fish is doing better, possibly better balanced. I cannot put it back into the display or frag tank as flow is too strong.

9/7/2023 4:00PM log entry: Escaped containment. The fish has re-entered the main tank and is not looking great. An interesting observation is that the other fish are clearly freaked out by the situation and know something isn't right. The cleaner shrimp is VERY interested in the mandarin and I'm allowing it for the time being. Each time the cleaner shrimp approaches and begins to fiddle with the fish the sailfin tang comes full speed and pushes the shrimp away. This behavior has happened several times. The fish is currently in a portion of the tank that I cannot access.

9/7/2023 10:00PM log entry: The fish went into hiding. I've look all over for it. It isn't in the tank corners, on the powerheads or return, and I don't see a collection of cuc scavenging anywhere. There are 3x peppermint shrimp, 1 skunk cleaner, and 300+ blue legs. If the fish passes away it won't be long until there is nothing left of it. Hoping for the best.
 
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The fish in question is pictured center on the sand bed. Nobody seems to be bothering it. It is able to swim yet it doesn’t “scoot” around to feed like it typically would.


IMG_2788.jpeg
 

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