Seneye & ammonia reading

[Dr. Reef]

A little late but Seneye monitors NH3 levels.
Most hobby level test kits we use like API, Red Sea or Salifert etc are TAN (NH3+NH4)
If you dosed 2ppm of ammonium chloride in your tank, given if salinity is 1.023-1.025 with pH of 8.0-8.3 A TAN kit will show 2ppm but NH3 will be about 0.2ppm.
It's about 80/20 ratio depending on many factors given already (80% Nh4/ 20%Nh3)
Fish are safe under 0.2 Nh3 ideally as close to 0 is better.

 

[brandon429]

Dr. Reef is it possible to get an updated ability reading for your extended fallow test vessel

im thinking it doesn’t harm the long term experiment since just a tiny oxidation test, say half a ppm or so, is flushed back out the next day leaving no metabolites in the system as a water change after we see if bacteria have self maintained this whole time

it puts the container back to clean water, biofilm surfaces, and resumed tiny contamination intervals we can re measure in 2024

pretty much any reading it produces or fails to produce now can be extrapolated to future years testing

 

[Dr. Reef]

@brandon429
Let me make sure what you want me to do.
You want me to do a partial water change in the vessel.
Then dose 0.5 ppm ammonia and test 24 hrs later?

 

[brandon429]

That initial dose is ok wo water change, then if it oxidizes in 24 hours I'd recommend another full water change so that any feed or metabolites are exported back out, and it's back to starvation mode ha nice

Hey are we about 14 mos or so into the experiment was curious how long it's been

Thank you so much for running that!
B

 

[Dr. Reef]

Ok I'll do that and report back

 

[brandon429]

I admit am nervous about results nobody has done a test for this in reefing, it's not logged anywhere we can read results before you post em

that container is arranged to starve bacteria.

It should be able to clear the sample without motion, but if we have to airstone move the water that's no harm to the framing of the experiment since that's just moving water across surfaces. I still think it can clear when still, we w see

To clarify for readers, Dr Reef has an impactful experiment going on where a container of saltwater and basic substrate media sit without motion or heat. It's mostly covered setup but a small vent has been left for air exchange and contamination from the surrounding home
Bottle bac was added a long time ago, but no feed

This is a test of bacterial ability to self sustain and get feed without us

the difference between a bottle of bacteria + this barren system we are testing in is the exposure to home contamination.

If polled, 99.999% of reefers will claim the bac are dead, starved...they sure might be and now we can see

I'm guessing they're alive and measurable simply due to the sum total of every crazy stalled cycle thread on the web, and how those turn out not to be stalled eventually - bac find a way. But this experiment is literally no feed at all, over a year, ZERO organics in the system as detritus etc... only room contaminants for feed, and that's only through a small vent hole it would be easier if container was open topped but we wanted a real starvation test.

even the steps of prepping the container at home inputs lots of contamination bacteria, perhaps those life/death cycles and biomass can be feed or trace organic reserves
@Dan_P this is the best fallow stress test I've seen

Article gold exists here, if they're inactive, dead or dormant then that's at least a clear measure of what bac can and can't do

Can filtration bac be starved, or do they always find a way?

relevance to this thread: what better meter to discern small scale bac performance than thousandths-reading seneye digital calibrated and working well

 

[Dan_P]

I admit am nervous about results nobody has done a test for this in reefing, it's not logged anywhere we can read results before you post em

that container is arranged to starve bacteria.

It should be able to clear the sample without motion, but if we have to airstone move the water that's no harm to the framing of the experiment since that's just moving water across surfaces. I still think it can clear when still, we w see

To clarify for readers, Dr Reef has an impactful experiment going on where a container of saltwater and basic substrate media sit without motion or heat. It's mostly covered setup but a small vent has been left for air exchange and contamination from the surrounding home
Bottle bac was added a long time ago, but no feed

This is a test of bacterial ability to self sustain and get feed without us

the difference between a bottle of bacteria + this barren system we are testing in is the exposure to home contamination.

If polled, 99.999% of reefers will claim the bac are dead, starved...they sure might be and now we can see

I'm guessing they're alive and measurable simply due to the sum total of every crazy stalled cycle thread on the web, and how those turn out not to be stalled eventually - bac find a way. But this experiment is literally no feed at all, over a year, ZERO organics in the system as detritus etc... only room contaminants for feed, and that's only through a small vent hole it would be easier if container was open topped but we wanted a real starvation test.

even the steps of prepping the container at home inputs lots of contamination bacteria, perhaps those life/death cycles and biomass can be feed or trace organic reserves
@Dan_P this is the best fallow stress test I've seen

Article gold exists here, if they're inactive, dead or dormant then that's at least a clear measure of what bac can and can't do

Can filtration bac be starved, or do they always find a way?

relevance to this thread: what better meter to discern small scale bac performance than thousandths-reading seneye digital calibrated and working well

Good stuff here. Will be watching.

@taricha and I are toying with the idea of using oxygen consumption as a measure of bacterial activity though anything consuming oxygen would register. Aquarium water consumes oxygen. Substrate consumes much more oxygen than water. We have a way to go to develop this method but if we can, the test might be useful for determining how dirty the substate might be or how much DOC is in the water. It might even be sensitive enough to show “starved” substrate still being active. All dreams right now. We will be back in some months with data.

 

[Dr. Reef]

I dosed 0.5ppm ammonium chloride and checked 24 hr later. Still 0.5ppm will check another 24 hrs later to see if there is any reduction at all. Will report back.

 

[brandon429]

thank you for the update ! If we’ve managed to sterilize an open home container then those rascals are weak without organics as reserves for sustenance. Can’t wait to see if it just holds and doesn’t move
do you have a way to bubble it for a few hours to see if motion across surfaces helps



im currently watching that to see how our experiment may be impacted by what has been withheld

 

[Dr. Reef]

I'll push air in it through air stone for few hours and see

 

[brandon429]

I’m totally shocked they weren’t all active and hungry for ammonia, it’s nice to finally know the upper limits of what bac tolerate either way. Boundaries are being discerned it’s really neat to know.

 

[taricha]

I’m totally shocked they weren’t all active and hungry for ammonia, it’s nice to finally know the upper limits of what bac tolerate either way

Wouldn't it make more sense that they have down-shifted their appetite in some way over the long months of nothing? Shrink their population, or dormancy of some sort?
I'd expect (if the bacteria are still there) that their appetite would take a day or two to respond to a flood of new food.
(But I have no idea if these are sensible expectations)

 

[Dan_P]

Wouldn't it make more sense that they have down-shifted their appetite in some way over the long months of nothing? Shrink their population, or dormancy of some sort?
I'd expect (if the bacteria are still there) that their appetite would take a day or two to respond to a flood of new food.
(But I have no idea if these are sensible expectations)

Yes, you are correct. Bacteria and other microorganisms can have an induction period, a time where protein synthesis kicks in to provide the necessary enzymes to respond to the new conditions. As a result of the induction period and growth of the population, noticeable consumption can takes day.

 

[Dr. Reef]

After pushing air through the vessel and checking again 24 later (just about) ammonia seems to be lower than 0.5ppm.
Due to restrictions on colors and hobbyists level kits not reliable at such lower levels I cant make a full determination but yet I can tell its lower than 0.5ppm.
Will know 24 hrs later tomorrow about this time if it drops further.
I expect it to as now we know they are still there and neutralizing some ammonia.

 

[brandon429]

Truly I guessed basic contamination during prep and pinhole access would keep it going but had never seen a test like that. All the fallow test threads we occasionally come across pass initial oxidation testing after long periods of no feed. Was wondering how far out that extends into total clean prep/ same test ability.