Several fish flashing, should I be worried?

[BSej]

Hello,

I noticed my one-spot foxface being sluggish and not eating well. Whilst paying attention more to the fish, I noticed my bluejaw trigger scratching his side against the rocks. I've seen him do it a few times, but not at a crazy frequency. I have 20 fish in a 150 gallon tank, and they all look healthy, swim nicely, and eat a lot except the foxface. He was very skinny when I bought him, and is still skinny.

After looking into what "flashing is", I noticed my Formosa wrasse does this quite often in the sand bed. I thought it was a behavioral thing until I started reading about ich, flukes, etc. Then today I noticed my chocolate tang flash against the sand bed a few times throughout the day as well.

I don't see any white spots on the fish, except the blue tang I just got from an online order today. But I guess that's unrelated and a problem for later if this isn't a problem already.

I am wondering what my next steps should be. Is it possible these are just normal behaviors? To me (I know nothing) it sounds like there is some kind of parasite in the tank that the fat healthy fish are dealing with, but the foxface was skinny to begin with and might not be able to put up as good a fight.
Note: I don't have a quarantine tank, but I can try to put one together if needed (I also don't have the materials).

Any help is appreciated, very concerned atm. I can attach videos tomorrow if I catch them in the act.

 

[Jekyl]

Reading this and answering as much as you can will help this process along.

Some Helpful Hints When Posting or Responding to Threads in the Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis Section

Aquarium Fish Disease Problem Solving Determining the best course of action for a problem with your aquarium can be a difficult task. Even advanced aquarists will often need to seek the help of others for complicated or unique issues. Our intent here on Reef 2 Reef is to offer expert advice...

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[ReefingDreams]

Sounds like you already had or have just introduced ich (or velvet, but hope not). You now have two options: 1) Try to manage in tank, or 2) Quarantine and treat every fish in coppwr and leave your display fallow for 72 days.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello,

I noticed my one-spot foxface being sluggish and not eating well. Whilst paying attention more to the fish, I noticed my bluejaw trigger scratching his side against the rocks. I've seen him do it a few times, but not at a crazy frequency. I have 20 fish in a 150 gallon tank, and they all look healthy, swim nicely, and eat a lot except the foxface. He was very skinny when I bought him, and is still skinny.

After looking into what "flashing is", I noticed my Formosa wrasse does this quite often in the sand bed. I thought it was a behavioral thing until I started reading about ich, flukes, etc. Then today I noticed my chocolate tang flash against the sand bed a few times throughout the day as well.

I don't see any white spots on the fish, except the blue tang I just got from an online order today. But I guess that's unrelated and a problem for later if this isn't a problem already.

I am wondering what my next steps should be. Is it possible these are just normal behaviors? To me (I know nothing) it sounds like there is some kind of parasite in the tank that the fat healthy fish are dealing with, but the foxface was skinny to begin with and might not be able to put up as good a fight.
Note: I don't have a quarantine tank, but I can try to put one together if needed (I also don't have the materials).

Any help is appreciated, very concerned atm. I can attach videos tomorrow if I catch them in the act.

While some fish flash, seems they are all doing this in some fashion and may be flukes. IF flukes, some signs will be loss of appetite, flashing, scratching and even sudden darting across tank as well as heavier breathing. Flukes are rarely seen with naked eye.
Ich moves and multiplies every 24 hrs which im not convinced is the case and behaviors do not suggest velvet, at least yet. Helpful will be pics and even video under white light intensity of the fish to better assess what you have going on

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello,

I noticed my one-spot foxface being sluggish and not eating well. Whilst paying attention more to the fish, I noticed my bluejaw trigger scratching his side against the rocks. I've seen him do it a few times, but not at a crazy frequency. I have 20 fish in a 150 gallon tank, and they all look healthy, swim nicely, and eat a lot except the foxface. He was very skinny when I bought him, and is still skinny.

After looking into what "flashing is", I noticed my Formosa wrasse does this quite often in the sand bed. I thought it was a behavioral thing until I started reading about ich, flukes, etc. Then today I noticed my chocolate tang flash against the sand bed a few times throughout the day as well.

I don't see any white spots on the fish, except the blue tang I just got from an online order today. But I guess that's unrelated and a problem for later if this isn't a problem already.

I am wondering what my next steps should be. Is it possible these are just normal behaviors? To me (I know nothing) it sounds like there is some kind of parasite in the tank that the fat healthy fish are dealing with, but the foxface was skinny to begin with and might not be able to put up as good a fight.
Note: I don't have a quarantine tank, but I can try to put one together if needed (I also don't have the materials).

Any help is appreciated, very concerned atm. I can attach videos tomorrow if I catch them in the act.

Multiple fish flashing in a tank is almost always a sign of flukes. Ich would show as spots, and velvet would make the fish breath really fast (gill flukes will cause a fish to breath moderately fast).

Pending us seeing a clear video taken under white lights, you might consider a prazipro treatment. That can be done in your display and is mostly reef safe. Basically, you dose the prazipro based on the net volume of your tank (how much water is actually in it, not counting rock displacement. etc). If you don't know that value, figure about 85% of the tank's rated volume is water, but you also need to add in any volume of water in the sump if you have one. Then, you add aeration to the tank, remove carbon filtration, run any skimmers (but do not collect any skimmate). Then dose the tank with the prazipro. 8 days later, do a 25% water change and redose.

Jay

 

[BSej]

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Reef
Aquarium water volume: 150g
Filtration type: Sump, refugium
Lighting, Photon V2 for front half + 2 LED bars for back half
How long has the aquarium been established? It was a fish only tank for a couple years, converted to reef 2 months ago.

Image of whole aquarium under white light.

Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using, as well as the test kit brand)
Temperature: 87-88F (mechanical & electronic probe)
pH: 8.16 (probe average)
Salinity / specific gravity: 1.026 sg (refractometer)
Ammoni: Near 0 (API)
Nitrite: .3 mg/L (Tetra) is this bad? Just noticed.
Nitrate: 20ppt (salifert)
Phosphorus: .2-.5 mg/L (seachem)
Copper: N/A

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? I've lost a couple fish, probably for other reasons.
Are any invertebrates affected? Not that I've noticed
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): TBD
Are the affected fish still feeding? Every fish is eating and swimming well except for my one-spot foxface who was quite thin when I bought him. He is now struggling to eat and is very slow moving.
What remedies have you tried so far? None.

Blenny flashing:
Formosa flashing:

These guys do it the most, not sure if I could catch the other guys on video.
The formosa did this since I got it (4 or so weeks ago) if I remember correctly.

 

[BSej]

If not ich, maybe the blue tang has it anyways.


Does this look like ich?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Aquarium Parameters:
Aquarium type: Reef
Aquarium water volume: 150g
Filtration type: Sump, refugium
Lighting, Photon V2 for front half + 2 LED bars for back half
How long has the aquarium been established? It was a fish only tank for a couple years, converted to reef 2 months ago.

Image of whole aquarium under white light.

Water quality (be sure to indicate what measurement units you are using, as well as the test kit brand)
Temperature: 87-88F (mechanical & electronic probe)
pH: 8.16 (probe average)
Salinity / specific gravity: 1.026 sg (refractometer)
Ammoni: Near 0 (API)
Nitrite: .3 mg/L (Tetra) is this bad? Just noticed.
Nitrate: 20ppt (salifert)
Phosphorus: .2-.5 mg/L (seachem)
Copper: N/A

In-depth information:
Have you lost any fish to this problem yet? I've lost a couple fish, probably for other reasons.
Are any invertebrates affected? Not that I've noticed
Respiration rate of affected fish (in gill beats per minutes, count for 15 seconds and multiply by 4): TBD
Are the affected fish still feeding? Every fish is eating and swimming well except for my one-spot foxface who was quite thin when I bought him. He is now struggling to eat and is very slow moving.
What remedies have you tried so far? None.

Blenny flashing:
Formosa flashing:

These guys do it the most, not sure if I could catch the other guys on video.
The formosa did this since I got it (4 or so weeks ago) if I remember correctly.

That sure looks like gill flukes to me. Can you get Prazipro or pure praziquantel?

That nitrite reading is probably due to the test kit, but even if it is accurate, that level is of no consequence for marine fish.

 

[BSej]

That sure looks like gill flukes to me. Can you get Prazipro or pure praziquantel?

That nitrite reading is probably due to the test kit, but even if it is accurate, that level is of no consequence for marine fish.

Yes, I ordered for pickup tomorrow. Thank you. Were you able to tell if the blue tang has ich from the video I linked?

I just watched him scrape against some rocks, and he just arrived yesterday. Fair to assume he brought ich with him? Sigh. What should I do about this now? I don't have a quarantine tank. My friend has an empty 55gal I could maybe use that?

 

[nereefpat]

Just from looking, maybe the blue tang does have ich. It's very likely, if you've added that many fish without treating any of them for ich.

I would get Prazi going ASAP. One dose, then another dose a week later. Let the skimmer run, but remove the collection cup.

 

[BSej]

So I'll treat with PraziPro tomorrow, 25% water change in 8 days and treat again. Then can I move on to treating the ich?

 

[MnFish1]

Just from looking, maybe the blue tang does have ich. It's very likely, if you've added that many fish without treating any of them for ich.

I would get Prazi going ASAP. One dose, then another dose a week later. Let the skimmer run, but remove the collection cup.

Agree - and - if you added the tang to the tank - it would be recommended to treat with copper in a hospital tank (a 55 gallon would work - however, you shouldn't need that much volume. I might fill it 1/2 or 1/3 full and use a sponge filter with an airstone. The copper would be 30 days - usually followed by 2 prazipro treatments 8 days apart - but in this case you can just use prazipro and copper together - your tank will need a 60-76 day fallow period (i.e. with no fish)

 

[BSej]

Agree - and - if you added the tang to the tank - it would be recommended to treat with copper in a hospital tank (a 55 gallon would work - however, you shouldn't need that much volume. I might fill it 1/2 or 1/3 full and use a sponge filter with an airstone. The copper would be 30 days - usually followed by 2 prazipro treatments 8 days apart - but in this case you can just use prazipro and copper together - your tank will need a 60-76 day fallow period (i.e. with no fish)

I can set up the quarantine tank, put all the fish in there, and dose the copper and prazi at the same time? And I can just keep them in quarantine for 76 days and then drop them back in the DT? Is 55 gallons enough to house all 20 fish?
Or am I just putting the blue tang in quarantine with copper and dosing prazi in the DT? Wouldn't the ich have spread in the tank by now?

 

[MnFish1]

I can set up the quarantine tank, put all the fish in there, and dose the copper and prazi at the same time? And I can just keep them in quarantine for 76 days and then drop them back in the DT? Is 55 gallons enough to house all 20 fish?
Or am I just putting the blue tang in quarantine with copper and dosing prazi in the DT? Wouldn't the ich have spread in the tank by now?

Sorry - I was not clear - I was saying that though not optimal - since it seems like you have 2 illnesses (ich and potential flukes) - you can use copper and prazipro together - with caution - and keep aeration high. Use a chelated copper. This is NOT optimal - but since you have 2 diseases (in all likelihood) you COULD do it this way. However, looking at it another way - the fish are not flashing all the time - and have no other symptoms. So - another way to approach it is to just use the standard copper for 30 days - then 2 prazipro doses 8 days apart. IF during the copper, the flashing gets worse etc - you could then add prazipro. The norm and best way to use the medications is one after the other.

If you have 20 fish (though I don't know the sizes), the 55 gallon full would probably be better - just make sure enough aeration and a cover!. Hope this helps

 

[BSej]

Sorry - I was not clear - I was saying that though not optimal - since it seems like you have 2 illnesses (ich and potential flukes) - you can use copper and prazipro together - with caution - and keep aeration high. Use a chelated copper. This is NOT optimal - but since you have 2 diseases (in all likelihood) you COULD do it this way. However, looking at it another way - the fish are not flashing all the time - and have no other symptoms. So - another way to approach it is to just use the standard copper for 30 days - then 2 prazipro doses 8 days apart. IF during the copper, the flashing gets worse etc - you could then add prazipro. The norm and best way to use the medications is one after the other.

If you have 20 fish (though I don't know the sizes), the 55 gallon full would probably be better - just make sure enough aeration and a cover!. Hope this helps

Thank you. So I'll do the copper for 30 days with all 20 fish in the 55 gallon QT, and then the prazi with all 30 fish in the QT as well? How do I ensure there is enough aeration? I don't know how to set up the QT either.. how often do I need to do water changes? And what exactly am I dosing to add copper? Could you recommend some products? Sorry I'm inexperienced in this but I appreciate all the help.

Dumb question: Does the QT need to cycle after I fill it with water? That would be terrible as far as timing..

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you. So I'll do the copper for 30 days with all 20 fish in the 55 gallon QT, and then the prazi with all 30 fish in the QT as well? How do I ensure there is enough aeration? I don't know how to set up the QT either.. how often do I need to do water changes? And what exactly am I dosing to add copper? Could you recommend some products? Sorry I'm inexperienced in this but I appreciate all the help.

If you look at the quarantine protocol which is listed as a 'stickie' at the top of the forum, that is the course we usually recommend. With that big a tank - I would have a sponge filter (the large one) - which has a large airstone - or even 2 sponge filters. I would be testing ammonia frequently (daily) with your copper measurements. I would recommend you add a bottled bacteria (for cycling) - such as Fritz 9000, to help with ammonia - it will colonize the sponge filter.

 

[nereefpat]

So I'll treat with PraziPro tomorrow, 25% water change in 8 days and treat again. Then can I move on to treating the ich?

That's what I would do, treat the display with Prazi. Then watch to see if you need to treat for ich.

I would start it today. Living in Chicago, you could get Prazi Pro at a fish store by noon.

 

[MnFish1]

That's what I would do, treat the display with Prazi. Then watch to see if you need to treat for ich.

I would start it today. Living in Chicago, you could get Prazi Pro at a fish store by noon.

I'm going to disagree slightly (though originally, I thought this was the way to go). To the OP - if you decide to do it this way I would have a hospital tank ready - and have chelated copper on hand as well.

 

[BSej]

I'm going to disagree slightly (though originally, I thought this was the way to go). To the OP - if you decide to do it this way I would have a hospital tank ready - and have chelated copper on hand as well.

Why one over the other? I thought this made sense because the first fish with signs of ich arrived yesterday. So I thought better to treat the flukes first that have been around and then treat the ich which sounds to be a new introduction to the tank.

One thing to note is I can start prazi today/tomorrow. I don't know how soon I can set up the QT with copper.

 

[MnFish1]

Why one over the other? I thought this made sense because the first fish with signs of ich arrived yesterday. So I thought better to treat the flukes first that have been around and then treat the ich which sounds to be a new introduction to the tank.

One thing to note is I can start prazi today/tomorrow. I don't know how soon I can set up the QT with copper.

Good question - I would start the prazipro today. I would set up the QT to have it ready for a CI treatment for the fish in case it's needed. The recommendation that we use here is that every fish is treated with copper followed by prazipro followed by observation (for CI/Ich). Thus, whether done now or in 2 weeks - I would treat the fish in a separate tank with copper.

Having said that - there is a difference between quarantining fish (the quarantine protocol above) - and a treatment (because the fish has an illness/symptoms). With a treatment tank its more a judgement call on how to do it - and with 2 potential illnesses one has to balance the risks of one treatment following the other (and what order) - vs using both together. There is no right or wrong answer - and @nereefpat 's comment makes complete sense.