Sharing BRSTV’s video!

[A_Blind_Reefer]

I don't think they are a 'Theranos' - but I think there are a lot of questions. I've posted my experiment I did with them months ago - which I'm not going to go into here. BUT - Lets just say - that depending on 'where' you sample from in your tank - your 'diversity' may be quite a bit higher than other areas. Their test checks 2 areas - which may not at all represent the 'total diversity of the tank'. It makes sense to pick 2 places that everyone tests - BUT - IMHO it does not show how biodiverse a tank is. I did find their results reproducible, etc. But do not feel it represents tank biodiversity.

I would think that most of the diversity is not necessarily floating freely within the water column, living within the sand, rock or on surfaces. I’m not so sure a water sample could accurately determine the diversity within the system

 

[MaxTremors]

That's not aquaculture

No, it is. Aquacultured rock is dry rock put in a tank with ocean rock (or rock from a long established tank) for a period of time, maricultured rock is dry rock put in the ocean for a period of time.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

No, it is. Aquacultured rock is dry rock put in a tank with ocean rock (or rock from a long established tank) for a period of time, maricultured rock is dry rock put in the ocean for a period of time.

You sure about that??? KP Aquatics calls their Rick aquacultured as opposed to maricultured

 

[sbreefco]

No, it is. Aquacultured rock is dry rock put in a tank with ocean rock (or rock from a long established tank) for a period of time, maricultured rock is dry rock put in the ocean for a period of time.

While technically you are correct, the state of Florida calls/considers Mariculture to be Aquaculture, leading to confusion.

 

[Koty]

The beginning was promising but I found it to be "more of the same" and very non-scientific without the possibility to really extract anything that will change my view or routine.

FWIW I'd rather not give a full comment on BRS videos or similarly on Tidal Gardens (great images but very little data). I did spend time trying to gain info but realized it's mostly a waste of time. For me, they can switch to selling vacuum cleaners or guns and do a similarly good job selling them. This is incomparable to the access you can get in this forum to many experts and experienced reefers that willingly spend time to help and inform

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not think it's any companies responsibility to test every product they sell. That would be completely unreasonable. The fact is - BRS invested a lot of money (presumable) into this experiment. The reefers you mention did invest money into their experiments - but it's not like they tested every reefing product for efficacy/ingredients. They chose what they wanted to study - and so did BRS. I mean - correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't R2R still advertising Vibrant during the whole debacle? I remember people complaining about seeing the side bars. Let's face it - there are a LOT of products out there that I have never used (the 10 different supplements added daily), etc - and I have a pretty successful aquarium. As you yourself have said - I believe Randy - that for example iodine - you dosed for a while - then stopped and saw no difference etc. I'm not defending Vibrant - or BRS for that matter.

I don’t think resellers need to do any testing. But if you are going to test a product and recommend it based on that testing, then I think it needs to be an appropriate test when the product is claiming a totally novel mechanism.

I never saw their Vibrant video before they took it down, but others complained the test was too simplistic, looking only at an algae covered rock, not a tank with any inverts in it that might be harmed.

 

[MnFish1]

I don’t think resellers need to do any testing. But if you are going to test a product and recommend it based on that testing, then I think it needs to be an appropriate test when the product is claiming a totally novel mechanism.

I never saw their Vibrant video before they took it down, but others complained the test was too simplistic, looking only at an algae covered rock, not a tank with any inverts in it that might be harmed.

Thanks - I did not see it either.

 

[MnFish1]

Correct. It appears that the biome testing is in its infancy. I would even think that it’s really just data collection at this point, of which you pay for. I just see the writing on the wall so to speak. I can for sure see this being fine tuned to the point where they recommend and sell specific organisms and bacterial strains to balance your system. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, it is a very interesting concept.

Yes - agreed its data collection. From one part of my tank it was 'not diverse'. From another it was in the >90th percentile of diversity'

 

[MnFish1]

I would think that most of the diversity is not necessarily floating freely within the water column, living within the sand, rock or on surfaces. I’m not so sure a water sample could accurately determine the diversity within the system

THIS

 

[fish farmer]

Yes - agreed its data collection. From one part of my tank it was 'not diverse'. From another it was in the >90th percentile of diversity'

Back when Ron Shimek was discussing deep sand bed health, he had a sampling system and population criteria for the micro fauna a certain amount was good, very low needed an infusion of new fauna. These were just easily visible with a magnifying glass. I did a couple of samples and my sand was good, but it was just a numbers sample. I could see they were different critters, if they were one type of worm that wouldn't be very diverse.

 

[polyppal]

Aquabiomics is not the next icp that they present themselves as. They are more like the Theranos of reefing.

 

[ReefEco]

Bummer I missed ReefaPalooza! I respect the effort gone into the experiment and talk - I definitely got some takeaways.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I'm going to disagree with you (partially). Simply by using live rock from the ocean - you're kickstarting a natural biome FROM WHEREVER THE ROCK CAME. The fish and coral you add later may agree or disagree (i.e. do well or not) - with this particular biome (i.e. there may be different varieties of parasites, etc). As Ryan (I believe correctly stated) - a lot of the 'stuff' on and in live rock does not end up surviving long-term

I struggle to comprehend why folks place so much trust in youtube videos created by a hobbyiest who works for a company who sells stuff to other hobbiests.

 

[MnFish1]

I struggle to comprehend why folks place so much trust in youtube videos created by a hobbyiest who works for a company who sells stuff to other hobbiests.

Because - the video that was posted (to me) makes sense as someone with science knowledge - I.e. they did a controlled experiment. There are things I disagree with - but - there were things I disagreed with in the Vibrant thread as well (and the Prime thread). The only conclusion that can be drawn here - is that under these conditions - this is what happened. IMHO as said before - it is probably not generalizable to every tank with these problems. Additionally, this 'hobbyist' used to OWN the company lol he is not an employee. And - in the video multiple other sources for the products were mentioned.

Rather than suggesting some 'conspiracy theory' - what are your actual problems with the experiment itself - which is what I had asked @Randy Holmes-Farley. (of course no answer is required)

 

[gbroadbridge]

Because - the video that was posted (to me) makes sense as someone with science knowledge - I.e. they did a controlled experiment. There are things I disagree with - but - there were things I disagreed with in the Vibrant thread as well (and the Prime thread). The only conclusion that can be drawn here - is that under these conditions - this is what happened. IMHO as said before - it is probably not generalizable to every tank with these problems. Additionally, this 'hobbyist' used to OWN the company lol he is not an employee. And - in the video multiple other sources for the products were mentioned.

Rather than suggesting some 'conspiracy theory' - what are your actual problems with the experiment itself - which is what I had asked @Randy Holmes-Farley. (of course no answer is required)

You just mentioned two reasons why BRS should not be trusted.

Prime and Vibrant.

At which point does the hobbyiest get the hint that bucks are more important than honest reporting?

As a scientist (yes i have a PhD) it annoys me that folks take Ryan as gospel.

I'm not going to take this discussion further as it is pointless, I would like folks to understand that Ryan is not the authority he promotes himself to be.

 

[Casket_Case]

See I would never! I don’t like hitchhikers…and all the other stuff it comes with! It’s also 10x more expensive and hard to find/illegal in many places.

I bought ten pounds legally from the gulf of mexico and had one or two unwanted hitchhikers and I paid around $130 for it. And it was nice, seasoned live rock. Can't beat that. People keep their tanks too sterile to quote Saint Paul

 

[MYosh88]

Because - the video that was posted (to me) makes sense as someone with science knowledge - I.e. they did a controlled experiment. There are things I disagree with - but - there were things I disagreed with in the Vibrant thread as well (and the Prime thread). The only conclusion that can be drawn here - is that under these conditions - this is what happened. IMHO as said before - it is probably not generalizable to every tank with these problems. Additionally, this 'hobbyist' used to OWN the company lol he is not an employee. And - in the video multiple other sources for the products were mentioned.

Rather than suggesting some 'conspiracy theory' - what are your actual problems with the experiment itself - which is what I had asked @Randy Holmes-Farley. (of course no answer is required)

Early in my career, I did biomedical research, and I also find the experiment presented by Ryan to be reasonable, within the resource limitations of this "hobby." Typically in biomedical research, no one study is the "truth," rather the "truth" is arrived at by the accumulation of multiple studies and lines of evidence. I appreciate all the discussion regarding the meaning of Ryan's presentation - it's a very scientific thing to do.

I bought and used Vibrant based on the BRS video, so like everyone else I feel burned. (I was starting to get suspicious because I had unexplained snail losses.) On the other hand, I thought the BRS videos evaluating different lights and salt mixes were very informative. Yes, Ryan has a conflict of interest (good of Randy to remind us of that), but in my opinion that does not necessarily invalidate the findings of this presentation. I will be more skeptical in the future, but I would still rather be part of a hobby where BRS produces this content, for our review, consideration and (potential) acceptance.

 

[I.AM.MR.MIKE]

Can I get a Harrumph? I jumped on the complaining band wagon in a thread and then the Rev called us out. I did a lot of thinking and all I know is Ryan made it much easier to access the products I wanted. I have been on another dead forum for 20 years or so and in the hobby 30 plus. I left when Ryan just started up and came back 5 years ago. I loved the videos and the easy access to products from BRS. I still like the products and I can read and think for myself and decide on them. So I decided I don't care if the push the products and make honest mistakes. They don't claim to be scientists. I miss the good investigates videos with Dandy Randy.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Can I get a Harrumph? I jumped on the complaining band wagon in a thread and then the Rev called us out. I did a lot of thinking and all I know is Ryan made it much easier to access the products I wanted. I have been on another dead forum for 20 years or so and in the hobby 30 plus. I left when Ryan just started up and came back 5 years ago. I loved the videos and the easy access to products from BRS. I still like the products and I can read and think for myself and decide on them. So I decided I don't care if the push the products and make honest mistakes. They don't claim to be scientists. I miss the good investigates videos with Dandy Randy.