Shipping Should Be Free

[GARRIGA]

Ice cream and chocolate should be free.

What I have noticed is that free ice cream and chocolates are rare, and very often the free stuff is inferior and not the ice cream or chocolate that I prefer.

I am at a restaurant atm and they have “Flour-less Chocolate Cake “. It tastes like drier lint and I can’t figure out how it ever became popular?

I remember buying books off the Amazon site when they first appeared. Now they sell everything and books of knowledge are rare.

I don’t want free coral and I am willing to pay shipping costs for real chocolate cake but all they have at this restaurant is fecal to the discriminating palate.

Shipping corals in inclement weather is a crime against life.

No one is saying ice cream or corals should be free.

 

[GARRIGA]

Honestly I think $35-$50 shipping that I pay here in Canada is pretty reasonable considering:

- The styrofoam cooler the corals ship in ain't free
- Heating packs ain't free
- Those plastic bags and elastic bags ain't free
- Boxes and tape ain't free, nor is paper or printer ink
- Employees (including if there is only one employee and that's you) ain't free
- Electricity and heating/cooling bills certainly ain't free...
- The fuel that goes into vehicles which carry our packages places ain't free
- The drivers and pilots ain't free either
- On top of that there has to be some profit or all that effort and cost won't be worth it, because it's profit that feeds the employees' families and gives them quality of life.

The shipping cost has to cover the cost of shipping materials as well as pay employees - whether those are the employees at the coral shop or the ones belonging to the shipping company. Allergic to shipping fees? Buy local!

That’s not what I’m saying. Might want to read it again or perhaps ask for clarification

 

[Dr. D]

Shipping is not a sunk cost, you only pay it if you ship something. Sunk costs are something you pay no matter if you sell a product or not. The only way you could convert shipping to a sunk cost is if you could find a shipper that would allow you to pay a fixed monthly fee and they ship whatever you send them. I am not aware of any services like this (there may be some but i'm sure they are for very high volume shippers).

Actually, no. You’re describing a fixed cost.

A sunk cost is a cost that is already incurred and unrecoverable, and thus should not be a factor in future decision making.

 

[GARRIGA]

Actually, no. You’re describing a fixed cost.

A sunk cost is a cost that is already incurred and unrecoverable, and thus should not be a factor in future decision making.

Why my point is treating as if it were a sunk cost. Hence the rent analogy. I'm not being literal.

 

[Dr. D]

“Sunk costs are something you pay no matter if you sell a product or not.”

That is the very definition of a fixed cost. A fixed cost may or may not be a sunk cost. When you spout definitions you’re being literal. Just correcting the error.

 

[Cool tangs]

Well just like everyone here, I'm sure everyone wants to get paid for the work they do. Even if it's shipping

I'm sure a business can absorb more when you spend more, hence most places offer free shipping when you spend x amount. But I'm sure that business doesn't won't to make a loss offering free shipping on small purchases. Since COVID all supply lines have been destroyed and slowly making a recovery, hence not being cheap anymore. There is not enough shipping containers currently to export bulk goods consistently. If I remember correctly, some ships got turned into scrap metal during the global pandemic. I say global because people seem to forget that inflation is not unique to there country lol

 

[GARRIGA]

“Sunk costs are something you pay no matter if you sell a product or not.”

That is the very definition of a fixed cost. A fixed cost may or may not be a sunk cost. When you spout definitions you’re being literal. Just correcting the error.

You are literally not getting my point. No correction needed.

 

[jonnywink]

Yeah I've never ordered any living things online. Sometimes I'll be interested, add a few things to my cart, go to checkout, see the shipping cost and then just empty cart.

I don't know about free, but maybe let's split the difference?

Me too!!

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

totally worth it when you buy in bulk, but yea, it sucks. I got my WWC order yesterday and had 4 corals so I felt less bad about paying it.

I am lucky I have nearby reefers that sell coral.

 

[GARRIGA]

Here's an example, LFS pays $60k annually in rent regardless if any frags sold. Lets assume that's all they sell. They expect some larger purchases will offset the smaller sales. They don't expect each transaction to pay a portion of that rent.

Likewise, garage farmer can just assume that $60k in shipping is a cost of doing business in exchange for not paying rent. Hence ignore the recovery of that annual cost per transaction.

If either the home farmer or LFS fails to make enough in sales to offset these costs plus cover other costs including their own salary then both go out of business. In that regard this is a failed business model because it implies there aren't enough sales to support their business model.

I assume the home farmer isn't expecting to survive on sales where it doesn't cover shipping. That's not a business. That's a hobbyist.

In addition, I was very specific in my opening post to imply this free shipping applies to overpriced frags and I went as far as editing it later to specify $100 frag. Was based on seeing online shipping charges by WWC of $39 and just assumed that might be their bulk cost. Been a while since I've shipped animals overnight so I guessed on cost but main point being in the end garage farmers don't have the fix cost of paying rent therefore more leeway to absorb shipping costs assuming they are running a business and same as an LFS expect to generate enough large sales to compensate for smaller transactions.

At this point. I give up. Made my case. I'm sticking to it. Not going to continue explaining it unless asked a specific question vs just replying to assumptions or perhaps I didn't explain myself correctly. It's the internet. Often hard to express a thought and have all grasp it as intended.

 

[reef_ranch]

you are right, those darn garage sellers are making too much money. let's enact a law that requires them to pay for shipping. that will teach 'em.

sheesh. last time i looked we let the market decide if something is too expensive. don't want to pay for shipping, don't buy it. what entitles you to free stuff on the back of someone else?

 

[Homewrecker]

The little things tend to add up. I sell aquatic plants as a side gig and winter KILLS my profits because I have to use insulated boxes and heat packs. We as consumers disregard the cost of a box but if you buy them from Uline they’re like $7-10, heat packs on the cheap are $2, bags, shipping labels, packaging etc really does add up.
For corals, $50 shipping sucks to pay but is pretty much up there with what it takes to stay afloat. $40 for the label, $5 for the box, $5 for misc packaging…
When these threads get started we all kinda get hopeful that there’s some magic trick you can use to make the shipping rates drop but we as small shippers all end up at the same realization. Unless you’re part of the big boys club (insert mega vendor name here) who pays roughly $15-20 to overnight anything, we’re all paying way more. I can’t wait for Amazon to have a retail shipping market, that’s when the real opportunity begins

 

[Beruka]

Unless one is running a brick and mortar operation with high rent and other costs then shipping should be free unless heavily discounted from retail. Talking about selling frags.

This hobby getting ridiculously expensive and these days that’s a one inch nub being shipped. Shows usually have these small cup containers allowing several nubs the customer can use on the flight back. Can’t the industry find a more efficient way to get these nubs from point A to point B in the smallest overnight container.

I know. I know. I’m dreaming but let’s be honest. These garage farmers aren’t putting up the capital expenditure or running costs of a store and perhaps can absorb some of these shipping costs because we don’t always need to spend the typical minimum order requirement of $200 plus. Might just want that single overpriced nub.

Let's confine this to $100 frags, for example. Let's exclude auction sales and stick to overpriced nubs

Prices are out of control for hobby and most online retailers are pushing more expensive options.

Also most local SPS are hanging on by a thread relying on hobbyist to give them cheap frags for credit. Most go under in 5 years. Indoor farming is not lucrative.

I would rather see a modern case study of how cheap a 50 breeder can be done.
- Lighting
- HOB skimmer
-kalk
- water changes.
- flow pumps
is all you need

 

[MarineandReef Jaron]

Not a livestock seller, but I thought I would chime in as someone who ships a lot in this industry. I absolutely know that people prefer free shipping. In the past, we have listed items for sale on Amazon with and without free shipping, but the same net cost. Overwhelmingly people choose to buy the free shipping listings.

UNLESS there is an item where shipping cost is disproportionate to the item cost, and many people buy more than one. For example, on something like an ATO there is no reason not to build the shipping into the price, but on something like a filter sock people often buy multiple and it is nearly the same price to ship 10 filter socks as it is to ship 1 sock. So by listing a filter sock for $6 and $6 shipping, you can get 10 socks far cheaper than if the socks were $12 while insuring that we do not loose money when selling a single sock.

This is exactly what frag sellers are doing. If shipping is $39 and the average gross margin is 50% then it is reasonable to expect free shipping at $200. Think of this. If someone sells $200 of coral then their actual cost will look like something below.

$200 Sale

-$100 Coral Cost

-$39 Shipping Cost

-$20 Advertising / variable web and processing costs. (Google Adds/ AI internet adds give a return for advertising $ spent 10 to 1 is pretty normal) Additionally, most e-commerce platforms charge based on sales volume so the cost is not fixed it is variable. There is also a 3% processing fee for most credit cards/ PayPal payments.

-$10 Losses (If on average 1 in 20 corals don't make it you will need to cover the loss. Sometimes a claim can be put in but sometimes not and insuring will cost close to $10 for a shipment of this value. Without insurance only the freight cost will be refunded)

In the end the seller takes home $31 to cover their running costs.

This is not much money but it is the reality of doing business. When sellers offer a 10% off sale they are loosing nearly all of their actual profits.

 

[fandaga]

The last fish and coral order I got UPS decided to leave it sitting next to a random tree in my yard below. This is in the middle of winter. The bottom of the box had holes and was soaked. Luckily nothing died. This shipping should have definitely been free.

 

[Quietman]

I have no issues paying for shipping. I would like volume discounts as that seems reasonable based on how shipping works but am also willing to take delays in order so everything can ship at once. Understanding a vendors costs and business models is key is setting your expectations. None of these corals/livestock vendors are Amazon and can arrange huge volume deals.

Personally, I like seeing the itemized charges. Include everything: packaging, shipping, fees you need to pass on, etc. I expect a reasonable shipping fee for livestock. Livestock seems like something you want quality shipping over minimizing cost.

 

[dthom]

I would love free shipping too. We own our own business (not in this industry) and all I can say is if it is really the way you feel it should be, then start a business and offer it to people. Sounds like you will get a lot of business!

 

[Kooma]

Here's a way to think about what I'm saying.

Imagine going to a frag swap and all in your costs are $300 including table, hotel, gas and dining. Might be more. Might be less. Just an example.

Do you estimate you are going to make 30 transactions therefore charge an extra $10 per transaction or just consider the $300 a sunk cost of doing business and hopefully you come out in the black because some frags might be $10 only while others might fetch $100 plus?

Shipping to me equates to a sunk cost such as rent strictly speaking for those running a business from home although an argument can be made for brick and mortar as well since rent paid was to serve foot traffic and online sales supplement that.

Saw this yesterday but wanted to add a quick perspective.

Sunk costs of a business going to show are indeed something they would usually absorb. When a reefer goes to a show, they also accept sunk costs to acquire frags and view the product. From your time, gas, mileage on vehicle, possible entry fee, likely lunch at taco bell, the movement costs the buyer time and money. Going to a store to shop, the buyer has similar sunk mileage, fuel, and possible food costs.

I think its fair to say that it shouldn't be on the seller to get you a products at no cost, and eat it all themselves, simply because you don't want to leave your house. A reduced shipment rate (50% eaten, 50% paid) would be reasonable, but not required. For many small businesses, covering the cost you would pay to drive to your LFS isn't feasible, and why many simply wont ship anything.

 

[KrisReef]

No one is saying ice cream or corals should be free.

Oh, I thought it was a good idea especially if they were See's Candy.

I just found out Warren Buffet own's 10% of See's.

 

[Dr. D]

Oh, I thought it was a good idea especially if they were See's Candy.

I just found out Warren Buffet own's 10% of See's.

Yup. Has for decades.