Sick clown fish

[citymouse]

My clown fish are about 11 yrs old. My male clown recently got very thin and has been laying around the bottom. He perks up when I look at him and when I feed them, he’s eating fine but then goes back to the bottom.
I assume internal parasite? How do I treat this?
Can he be separated from the female? I have a QT I can use but I’m also worried they can’t be apart.

The female is fine and the other fish, a kole tang, is also fine, I don’t have corals.

 

[threebuoys]

What changes have you made to the tank recently that would have introduced internal parasites? Ho long has the Kole been in the tank?

What are you feeding?

Can you provide pictures / video?

 

[Sharkbait19]

Any newfound aggression from the female?
Something would have to have introduced internal parasites, and typically the fish that brought it in would be the first affected.

 

[vetteguy53081]

My clown fish are about 11 yrs old. My male clown recently got very thin and has been laying around the bottom. He perks up when I look at him and when I feed them, he’s eating fine but then goes back to the bottom.
I assume internal parasite? How do I treat this?
Can he be separated from the female? I have a QT I can use but I’m also worried they can’t be apart.

The female is fine and the other fish, a kole tang, is also fine, I don’t have corals.

May be an age factor but for purpose of assessment, can you post pics under white lighting ?

 

[Weeb]

My clown fish are about 11 yrs old. My male clown recently got very thin and has been laying around the bottom. He perks up when I look at him and when I feed them, he’s eating fine but then goes back to the bottom.
I assume internal parasite? How do I treat this?
Can he be separated from the female? I have a QT I can use but I’m also worried they can’t be apart.

The female is fine and the other fish, a kole tang, is also fine, I don’t have corals.

The proper diagnosis is the first step. Was the fish aqua cultured or wild-caught? If aqua cultured, where would it pick up the "internal parasite?" If wild-caught, why so long before exhibiting this behavior? Also, if wild-caught, where was it caught? Cyanide is still being used in some parts of the world.

Has this fish ever been treated with copper or for Clownfish disease (Brooklynella) or for any other malady? What was the original way this fish was put into the community aquarium (i.e., how was it handled after it was bagged from the source)?

I've seen tangs go through the same scenario. My lineatus was fine for years, then he thinned and stopped eating and subsequently died. My autopsy could discover no parasite. This with a very good diet/nutrition. All other tankmates were fine and all continued on for a few more years.

Back to your fish. . .Assuming your aquarium water quality is where it should be and depending on answers to the above, it may be easier to try and figure this out.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Since the fish is 11 years old you can rule out cyanide. The vast majority of internal parasites can also be ruled out. Since it is the only fish affected, water quality issues can be ruled out.
Waiting to see video/pictures, but with a clown that old, my first thought would be a chronic wasting disease such as Mycobacterium….fish tuberculosis. It isn’t treatable and is the #1 cause of death in old fish.
Jay

 

[Weeb]

Since the fish is 11 years old you can rule out cyanide. The vast majority of internal parasites can also be ruled out. Since it is the only fish affected, water quality issues can be ruled out.
Waiting to see video/pictures, but with a clown that old, my first thought would be a chronic wasting disease such as Mycobacterium….fish tuberculosis. It isn’t treatable and is the #1 cause of death in old fish.
Jay

I disagree. Cyanide poisoning shortens the life expectancy of fishes. This can be measured in days, weeks, or years.

 

[Weeb]

My clown fish are about 11 yrs old. My male clown recently got very thin and has been laying around the bottom. He perks up when I look at him and when I feed them, he’s eating fine but then goes back to the bottom.
I assume internal parasite? How do I treat this?
Can he be separated from the female? I have a QT I can use but I’m also worried they can’t be apart.

The female is fine and the other fish, a kole tang, is also fine, I don’t have corals.

I would add another question to my list. . .What have you been feeding your clownfish?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I disagree. Cyanide poisoning shortens the life expectancy of fishes. This can be measured in days, weeks, or years.

Sorry, there is no evidence of that. First of all, clownfish are not target-collected with cyanide. Additionally, I've done three studies regarding cyanide collection of fish since the 1980's. The excessive mortality rate from that tends to manifest itself within the first 40 to perhaps 60 days post-capture. There is no evidence that a fish that has been doing well beyond that time would have any issues at all.

My studies did show that the increased mortality rate from cyanide collection accounts for up to a 60% increase in the rate, but that tapers off and drops to zero fairly rapidly. It is a moderately acute toxin, and the fish that survive the initial mortality window are fine.

I am in no way condoning this collection practice, in fact, I wrote my first magazine editorial decrying this activity in 1982 - not counting a paper I wrote in the sixth grade in 1971, where I wrote: "anyone who uses drugs to catch fish is a dumb cluck" (grin).

Jay

 

[Weeb]

Sorry, there is no evidence of that. First of all, clownfish are not target-collected with cyanide. Additionally, I've done three studies regarding cyanide collection of fish since the 1980's. The excessive mortality rate from that tends to manifest itself within the first 40 to perhaps 60 days post-capture. There is no evidence that a fish that has been doing well beyond that time would have any issues at all.

My studies did show that the increased mortality rate from cyanide collection accounts for up to a 60% increase in the rate, but that tapers off and drops to zero fairly rapidly. It is a moderately acute toxin, and the fish that survive the initial mortality window are fine.

I am in no way condoning this collection practice, in fact, I wrote my first magazine editorial decrying this activity in 1982 - not counting a paper I wrote in the sixth grade in 1971, where I wrote: "anyone who uses drugs to catch fish is a dumb cluck" (grin).

Jay

Sorry, there is evidence.

Dr. Noga and I have seen, in autopsy, liver and/or organ damage due to cyanide poisoning. Experiments I did in the 80's showed that cyanide affects internal organs. It is intuitive that damaged but still partially functioning organs will reduce the life expectancy of marine fish. I conducted similar experiments with the use of copper treatments in the recommended doses for extended times.

Perhaps clownfish are not caught by cyanide anywhere in the world, but I don't have personal evidence of that. Glad if it isn't done anywhere.

 

[citymouse]

What changes have you made to the tank recently that would have introduced internal parasites? Ho long has the Kole been in the tank?

What are you feeding?

Can you provide pictures / video?

No changes . Kole tang has been there for over 3 yrs. Feeding NLS and occasionally frozen brine shrimp, but mostly the NLS which is what they’ve always eaten.
I can try to get a decent pic/ video later.

 

[citymouse]

The fish is over 11 yrs old. He was tank bred not wild caught. I didn’t know how internal parasites happened so I guess we can rule that out. I will get a pic and video just as soon as I can.
thank you everyone!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry, there is evidence.

Dr. Noga and I have seen, in autopsy, liver and/or organ damage due to cyanide poisoning. Experiments I did in the 80's showed that cyanide affects internal organs. It is intuitive that damaged but still partially functioning organs will reduce the life expectancy of marine fish. I conducted similar experiments with the use of copper treatments in the recommended doses for extended times.

Perhaps clownfish are not caught by cyanide anywhere in the world, but I don't have personal evidence of that. Glad if it isn't done anywhere.

I think you misunderstood what Dr. Noga was saying. He has (as others have) demonstrated acute mortality in marine fish collected in this fashion. He has labelled a syndrome he calls "DMS" - Delayed Mortality Syndrome". This is a "catch-all" for a variety of issues facing newly acquired fish. One of those issues is cyanide collection. However, he goes on to say; "While cyanide has been suspected of causing DMS, its role is uncertain because there are no scientific studies that prove cyanide exposure can cause DMS." He then writes, "there is no data showing that fish that have been exposed to cyanide are still more susceptible to stress (i.e. DMS) several days to weeks later." (Noga 2010). So - with this, he is even more conservative than I am regarding delayed mortality in fish due to cyanide collection...and certainly neither of us think that cyanide can cause acute mortality years later.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The fish is over 11 yrs old. He was tank bred not wild caught. I didn’t know how internal parasites happened so I guess we can rule that out. I will get a pic and video just as soon as I can.
thank you everyone!

Here is an excerpt of my disease book on Mycobacterium infections. While a definitive diagnosis would require culturing internal organ tissue (usually the liver), the symptoms at this point tend to point to this diagnosis.


Mycobacterium infection (AKA "Fish Tuberculosis") is a common, yet often misdiagnosed bacterial disease of freshwater and marine fish. It has zoonotic potential as it can infect humans through cuts in the skin.

Symptoms are varied and non-specific, and can include; darkened coloration, emaciation, fin erosion, skin ulcers, and granulomas on the internal organs (which will stain for gram positive, acid-fast bacteria). In most cases, the disease is chronic and slow-acting, with most fish succumbing due to "old age". However, in some species, held under crowded conditions, acute Mycobacterium infections have been seen, where a high percentage of the population will die, even at a young age. This has been noted in cichlids, pupfish, pirate perch and zebra danios.

Many treatments for Mycobacterium infections in fish have been proposed, but none work well. Antibiotics that have been used include; erythromycin, kanamycin, and rifampicin. It is probable that any drug used would need to be dosed orally, especially if freshwater fish are being treated. Control is the best course of action; maintain optimal water quality, avoid overcrowding, and remove any dead fish promptly.

Atypical Mycobacterium, M. chelonae, M. fortuitum, M. marinum are very common in the environment, and therefore are found in aquariums. They are difficult to culture, but can be isolated from virtually every aquarium if you sample properly. They are commonly found in frozen seafood items, so the chance of them being introduced into aquariums is consistently high.

Sterilization of infected tank decorations and equipment is difficult, and not strongly advised since these bacteria are already in the environment, but > 200 ppm sodium hypochlorite for > 1 hour has been shown to be effective (Noga 2010).

Jay

 

[Weeb]

I think you misunderstood what Dr. Noga was saying. He has (as others have) demonstrated acute mortality in marine fish collected in this fashion. He has labelled a syndrome he calls "DMS" - Delayed Mortality Syndrome". This is a "catch-all" for a variety of issues facing newly acquired fish. One of those issues is cyanide collection. However, he goes on to say; "While cyanide has been suspected of causing DMS, its role is uncertain because there are no scientific studies that prove cyanide exposure can cause DMS." He then writes, "there is no data showing that fish that have been exposed to cyanide are still more susceptible to stress (i.e. DMS) several days to weeks later." (Noga 2010). So - with this, he is even more conservative than I am regarding delayed mortality in fish due to cyanide collection...and certainly neither of us think that cyanide can cause acute mortality years later.

Jay

I noted in his original edition (1996) he wrote, "cyanide collection." When I asked him why not include our experimental results, he said the book was for 'diagnosis and treatment of diseases (and some conditions).' He reminded me of the DVM credo, "Do no harm." He (obviously) believed the purposeful damaged fish in cyanide tank-treated fish was not something to include in this publication.

The Second Edition of 2010 is an edited version of his ordinal 1996 book and does not include changes to this particular section.

Even by standards of the late 80's such experiments might be considered inhumane. I'll end my responses here, not wanting to highjack this thread anymore.

 

[Weeb]

No changes . Kole tang has been there for over 3 yrs. Feeding NLS and occasionally frozen brine shrimp, but mostly the NLS which is what they’ve always eaten.
I can try to get a decent pic/ video later.

Thanks for the information.

I'm not a fan of pellets and brine shrimp.
Brine shrimp is mostly water. Surprisingly medium-low in nutritional value.
Pellets contain wheat binders. Marine fish don't use much in the way of wheat/wheat products.

So, my best guess is that this is a nutritional issue.

 

[citymouse]

Here is an excerpt of my disease book on Mycobacterium infections. While a definitive diagnosis would require culturing internal organ tissue (usually the liver), the symptoms at this point tend to point to this diagnosis.


Mycobacterium infection (AKA "Fish Tuberculosis") is a common, yet often misdiagnosed bacterial disease of freshwater and marine fish. It has zoonotic potential as it can infect humans through cuts in the skin.

Symptoms are varied and non-specific, and can include; darkened coloration, emaciation, fin erosion, skin ulcers, and granulomas on the internal organs (which will stain for gram positive, acid-fast bacteria). In most cases, the disease is chronic and slow-acting, with most fish succumbing due to "old age". However, in some species, held under crowded conditions, acute Mycobacterium infections have been seen, where a high percentage of the population will die, even at a young age. This has been noted in cichlids, pupfish, pirate perch and zebra danios.

Many treatments for Mycobacterium infections in fish have been proposed, but none work well. Antibiotics that have been used include; erythromycin, kanamycin, and rifampicin. It is probable that any drug used would need to be dosed orally, especially if freshwater fish are being treated. Control is the best course of action; maintain optimal water quality, avoid overcrowding, and remove any dead fish promptly.

Atypical Mycobacterium, M. chelonae, M. fortuitum, M. marinum are very common in the environment, and therefore are found in aquariums. They are difficult to culture, but can be isolated from virtually every aquarium if you sample properly. They are commonly found in frozen seafood items, so the chance of them being introduced into aquariums is consistently high.

Sterilization of infected tank decorations and equipment is difficult, and not strongly advised since these bacteria are already in the environment, but > 200 ppm sodium hypochlorite for > 1 hour has been shown to be effective (Noga 2010).

Jay

Thank you for this. So there's def no over crowding, there are 3 fish in a 215g tank I've never stocked it, I had a couple goby's in the past that died, one jumped into the filter somehow..still a mystery because I have screen lids! The fish has no symptoms listed except being emaciated. I admit I am not great at keeping up with water changes, however, everything is good, no ammonia, no nitrates, I don't keep corals so there are many tests I don't do, salt levels are fine etc. 3 fish in a tank that big probably is the reason why my numbers stay good! lol I'm getting ready to do another water change soon, I've had a small algae bloom recently, that's my fault for not staying on top of things since starting a new job, but I figure since the water parameters are okay, it can't be the reason for whatever is wrong with him.

 

[Weeb]

Thank you for this. So there's def no over crowding, there are 3 fish in a 215g tank I've never stocked it, I had a couple goby's in the past that died, one jumped into the filter somehow..still a mystery because I have screen lids! The fish has no symptoms listed except being emaciated. I admitaldy am not great at keeping up with water changes, however, everything is good, no ammonia, no nitrates, I don't keep corals so there are many tests I don't do, salt levels are fine etc. 3 fish in a tank that big probably is the reason why my numbers stay good! lol I'm getting ready to do another water change soon, I've had a small algae bloom recently, that's my fault for not staying on top of things since starting a new job, but I figure since the water parameters are okay, it can't be the reason for whatever is wrong with him.

Keep in mind that, to a lesser extent, marine fish take up trace elements from the surrounding water. Water changes keep those trace elements available. Not saying that this is a or the concern here.

 

[citymouse]

I forgot to answer all questions. There is no aggression going on, they all get along just fine. I only have 3 fish in a 215g tank...I know, it's ridiculous, but I haven't stocked it and the fish I've bought over the years, most never made it out of quarantine, some arrived DOA, feeling defeated, I never bought anymore. The Kole tang is about 4yrs old. This picture was the best one that shows just how terribly thin Clyde (of Bonnie and Clyde) has become, I've been watching him eat, swim around and laying on the sand like he's exhausted, I assume he's weak because he's so thin. I don't know what to do for him and I've been worried that separating them would surely stress him out and he'd die in QT. He looks like an old man..

 

[Weeb]

I forgot to answer all questions. There is no aggression going on, they all get along just fine. I only have 3 fish in a 215g tank...I know, it's ridiculous, but I haven't stocked it and the fish I've bought over the years, most never made it out of quarantine, some arrived DOA, feeling defeated, I never bought anymore. The Kole tang is about 4yrs old. This picture was the best one that shows just how terribly thin Clyde (of Bonnie and Clyde) has become, I've been watching him eat, swim around and laying on the sand like he's exhausted, I assume he's weak because he's so thin. I don't know what to do for him and I've been worried that separating them would surely stress him out and he'd die in QT. He looks like an old man..

That's about the thinnest clown I've ever seen.