I think most hobbiests are uneducated concerning skimmers. They are probably the most over rated piece of equipment used. All the scientific testing I've read has shown them to be highly inefficient and, for the most part, performance was pretty much the same. There's a few good articles out there where skimmers were tested in laboratory, skimate analized,and the results are pretty dismal....
Skimmer Ratings- a discussion.
- Thread starter Powerman
- Start date
- Tagged users None
I know one thing I do is try to suggest a skimmer that fits someones need and budget. I dont try to say well you need this skimmer even though its $100 more than what they want to spend. I figure people put a budget out so they dont overspend. I repect that. So unless I totally think they cant get what they need I try to keep them in budget and get good performance.
I try to be unbiased but I think about all aspects. Customer service, performance, build and ease of use.
Mojo~
I try to be unbiased but I think about all aspects. Customer service, performance, build and ease of use.
Mojo~
Powerman
Community Member
I know where you are coming from... and while I think the goal of judging skimmer performance is admirable and needed.... I don't necessarily take both those studies to be the end all be all answer to the question.
I wasn't around for it.... but this hobby went skimmer less for quite a while, and there are other methods of running a reef skimmerless..... if those methods were so effective... we would still be skimmerless.
Powerman
Community Member
So Jon... what do you think of the ever popular question.... Can I over skim my tank? I realize a larger skimmer will not work as well as a properly sized one.... but is it possible to skim a tank too aggressively?
Powerman
Community Member
There are some that feel you can. But I never got any reasoning or what exactly is being done of harm. Seems to me it is just a matter of not feeding enough.
Which brings me to another question.... do you feel one of the benefits of good skimmer is the ability to feed more?
yes and no, it may pull some of the excess out but not everything. You could still end up with phosphates and a lot has to do with how much flow is going past the skimmer. A lot of variables from tank to tank. This is just my opinion. But the more and more I learn and experience I feel that we all have been over sizing our skimmers. I do feel that there has to be a good amount of turnover in the skimmer for larger tanks. You cant simply keep adding air. If the skimmer doesnt have a good amout of through put then the skimmer will just not skim enough of the systems water volume to keep up as well.
Example. Warner marine AS 200 with the sedra 9000 vs say a MSX 200. both 8 inch bodies. both pull appox 900 to 1000 lph of air. The WM with the sedra wil trump the sicce pump on water through put. you will be able to put the WM on a larger system and skim more of the overall systems water volume.
Go back to the EuroReef skimmers that were very popular. They used mosty sedra pumps. Not a ton of air but still a good water to air ratio. Lots of water and very turbulent. Skim like crazy. So you have to look, No bubble plate and simple design. I think you have some skimmers out now that are the way they are to compete with others out there. But no thought was put into the skimmer. OThers have had a lot of thought and extensive testing.
Sorry kinda rambling on again but there is so much to the design of these and so little at the same time. if that makes sense.
Example. Warner marine AS 200 with the sedra 9000 vs say a MSX 200. both 8 inch bodies. both pull appox 900 to 1000 lph of air. The WM with the sedra wil trump the sicce pump on water through put. you will be able to put the WM on a larger system and skim more of the overall systems water volume.
Go back to the EuroReef skimmers that were very popular. They used mosty sedra pumps. Not a ton of air but still a good water to air ratio. Lots of water and very turbulent. Skim like crazy. So you have to look, No bubble plate and simple design. I think you have some skimmers out now that are the way they are to compete with others out there. But no thought was put into the skimmer. OThers have had a lot of thought and extensive testing.
Sorry kinda rambling on again but there is so much to the design of these and so little at the same time. if that makes sense.
Jeremy R.
Community Member
LOL. I couldn't agree with you more Jon. I get this on a daily basis like you. It is very had to persuade a potential customer that the large skimmer that only costs $50-100 more is not better for their tank. Most customers I have encountered go by the idea bigger is better and that they will initially get better results and cleaner water with a larger skimmer. There are also a ton of people that keep suggesting to others on threads that they should get the largest skimmer they can afford. This really makes my job hard and often leads to a disgruntled customer or even a customer at all. But as these well designed skimmers become more popular to the masses, I do feel there might be a light at the end of the tunnel. This is why hobbiest like Mojo is a great asset to those looking to get a new skimmer to get insight and a better understanding of what to look for.
Jeremy R.
Community Member
I think the idea of overskimming is hogwash. You can have too large of a skimmer on a system which will actually have the adverse effect than what most would think. You can however harm your tank with excessive skimming and carbon dosing. IMO that is as close to the idea of overskimming as you can get.
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
I should put an AS300 (12" body, 6" neck, 2 x 9000HO pumps (2000lph+) on my 75 gallon frag system at the office just to show the point... it has a big rubbermaid sump.
Can you OVERSKIM? Like Jeremy and all of us have said, NO but you can put a skimmer on your system that doesn't WORK.
Can you OVERSKIM? Like Jeremy and all of us have said, NO but you can put a skimmer on your system that doesn't WORK.
Powerman
Community Member
So I asked before..... So then what is the largest range a well designed skimmer can span and still operate OK on the low end and OK on the big end?
Heck... just use what you know. what is the range a 840 can span... K2...AS200... XP-2000. Can most well designed skimmers span a tank twice the size, or is that asking too much. will too much performance be lost on one end?
Heck... just use what you know. what is the range a 840 can span... K2...AS200... XP-2000. Can most well designed skimmers span a tank twice the size, or is that asking too much. will too much performance be lost on one end?
Well I would say the following from my experience.
All well stocked
ATB 840 75g - 140g
K2 80g to 150g
WM as200 150g to 250g
xp 2000 80g to 150g
Most pull plenty of air. they are more limited by the water volume they can cycle.
Mojo~
Troylee
all about the diy!!!!!
Were never gonna know all the answers to this question or anything really in this hobby, that's what makes it so interesting, everday is a learning experince....skimmers for sure are never gonna be a exact match for a exact tank or each one would have to be custom built to each tank and exact specs such as bioload etc. But that's a never ending thing as we constantly add and stuff grows it changes almost daily.... I personally like to bump it up a notch on skimmers for just that reason we constantly add more fish, more corals, and some like myself a upgrade every couple months lol.... My skimmer rite now is a little overkill and the skim comes and goes over the course of the day but it won't be long before my tank grows into it... I ran the mesh wheel on it and it skimmed like crazy for about 2 weeks then slowed down week after week and finnaly the tank , bioload and skimmer balanced out and I don't get close to the amount of skimate I did the first couple weeks, so I de- tuned the skimmer by switching to the large pinwheel and I might even switch it over to the small soon untill I get more livestock in there but fir the time being it for sure gets the job done I just don't see foam 24hrs a day coming into the cup maybe half of the day and it almost idles and when it's time it performs again.... Doesn't help my hands are in the tank all the time killing the foam head...
ksed
Valuable Member
Sorry guys I don't want to get off topic here ,but how is it possible that the WM AS 200 can be used or rated for a larger tank than the WM K2. I believe they have similar air intake, but wouldn't the advantage go to the cone for less tublence or better transition?
The Sicce pump on the k2 just does not have the water through put the sedra 9000ho has. THe as 200 has a larger body to handle the added water flow so the air it does pull has longer contact time. I think any skimmer with the sicce pump is maxed at about 150 gallons.
Its not just about air intake. I think most that dont truly get into skimmers think more air is always better. AS you use more and more skimmers you start to realize and see more and more of the limitations of a skimmer. For someone who doesnt see that many skimmers it may not be noticable. But over time you can see how the bubbles rise differently and how wet or dry they are. where they break how far down the bubbles come down in the body ect ect.... I hope this helps.
Mojo~
Its not just about air intake. I think most that dont truly get into skimmers think more air is always better. AS you use more and more skimmers you start to realize and see more and more of the limitations of a skimmer. For someone who doesnt see that many skimmers it may not be noticable. But over time you can see how the bubbles rise differently and how wet or dry they are. where they break how far down the bubbles come down in the body ect ect.... I hope this helps.
Mojo~
Powerman
Community Member
So answer me this.... Let's not say as a rule of thumb... lets agree it all depends on the skimmer design and it just depends....
On water through put, you say this or that does not do enough, well that would suggest some sort of turn over rate. Like the K2 and AS200.... Sicce puts out enough for a 150..... that would suggest that what the Sicce does is a minimal tank turn over for a 150. A AS200 and the Sedra do enough for a 200.
So, would suggest some sort of reasonable tank turn over rate since both pull about the same amount of air? At least some sort of ball park that if you have a 90 you want this much water... through a properly designed skimmer...., and through a 180 you want this much ect.
The old rule of thumb for Recirc skimmers is 1.5 times your tank volume. So a 100g tank would want about 150gph going through the skimmer ect....
This wold hold pretty tue +- for internal skimmers as well. Agiain its approx but gives you a good starting point.
This wold hold pretty tue +- for internal skimmers as well. Agiain its approx but gives you a good starting point.
Similar threads
