Skin Disorder Vlamingi Tang

ss88

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I have a newly acquired vlamingi tang presenting with a skin lesion dating back to 3/29/2023.

History

Purchased on 5-6" 3/24/2023 with 20 other specimens from a local aquarist braking down their system.

Specimen in question did not initially present with any visible abnormalities and accepted food the second day.

Acclimated to a quarantine holding system approximately 175 gallons in volume.

Quarantine system was fallow for 130+ days and remained cycled by regular additions of ammonia chloride, initial bacteria culture was added from display tank.

On 3/24/2023 as seen in the graph, I experienced a small ammonia spike in the system, addition of amquel (25ml) and turbostart 900 by fritz (100ml) was added to manage.

On 3/28/2023 another specimen Paracanthurus hepatus from the same lot of fish, presented with cryptocaryon irritans.

On 3/29/2023 preformed 150 gallon water change to remove amquel. pH fluctuation from 7.95 to 8.1 during water change.

On 3/29/2023 commenced with copper safe treatment. (See graph)

On 3/29/2023 at ~ 8:00pm the specimen in question presented with a small 1cm x 1.5cm red and white lesion on the lower abdominal area. Pictures with red arrow, appears to be improving. Pictures of lesion taken today 4/1/2023, no pictures available from 3/29/2023.

On 3/31/2023 at 12:00am to 4:00am I preformed a medicated bath in KanaPlex (kanamycin) (3.5 gallons, 1.5 scoops roughly 2x the normal dosage). Air-stone added and temperature controlled by holding container in tank.

On 3/31/2023 at 8:00am noticed white lesions on opposite side of fish developed. Respiration rate had increased significantly.

On 3/31/2023 specimen accepted food normally.

On 4/1/2023 at 12:00am to 4:00am I preformed a medicated bath in KanaPlex (kanamycin) (3.5 gallons, 1.5 scoops roughly 2x the normal dosage). Air-stone added and temperature controlled by holding container in tank.

On 4/1/2023 at 8:00am noticed white lesions on opposite side of fish have roughly doubled in size.

On 4/1/2023 at 11:00am preformed skin scrape and wet mount slide. No signs of uronema.

My first thought is acute toxicity from possible over dosage of KanaPlex. Perhaps, I should have used my mg scale.

Looking for feedback on best course of action.

Link to video of skin scrape wet mount slide microscope.
Link to video specimen in holding container for close up view of lesions

IMG_6661.jpg IMG_6662.jpg IMG_6664.png IMG_6665.png IMG_6667.png side.top.png skide.png tank.png
 

vetteguy53081

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I have a newly acquired vlamingi tang presenting with a skin lesion dating back to 3/29/2023.

History

Purchased on 5-6" 3/24/2023 with 20 other specimens from a local aquarist braking down their system.

Specimen in question did not initially present with any visible abnormalities and accepted food the second day.

Acclimated to a quarantine holding system approximately 175 gallons in volume.

Quarantine system was fallow for 130+ days and remained cycled by regular additions of ammonia chloride, initial bacteria culture was added from display tank.

On 3/24/2023 as seen in the graph, I experienced a small ammonia spike in the system, addition of amquel (25ml) and turbostart 900 by fritz (100ml) was added to manage.

On 3/28/2023 another specimen Paracanthurus hepatus from the same lot of fish, presented with cryptocaryon irritans.

On 3/29/2023 preformed 150 gallon water change to remove amquel. pH fluctuation from 7.95 to 8.1 during water change.

On 3/29/2023 commenced with copper safe treatment. (See graph)

On 3/29/2023 at ~ 8:00pm the specimen in question presented with a small 1cm x 1.5cm red and white lesion on the lower abdominal area. Pictures with red arrow, appears to be improving. Pictures of lesion taken today 4/1/2023, no pictures available from 3/29/2023.

On 3/31/2023 at 12:00am to 4:00am I preformed a medicated bath in KanaPlex (kanamycin) (3.5 gallons, 1.5 scoops roughly 2x the normal dosage). Air-stone added and temperature controlled by holding container in tank.

On 3/31/2023 at 8:00am noticed white lesions on opposite side of fish developed. Respiration rate had increased significantly.

On 3/31/2023 specimen accepted food normally.

On 4/1/2023 at 12:00am to 4:00am I preformed a medicated bath in KanaPlex (kanamycin) (3.5 gallons, 1.5 scoops roughly 2x the normal dosage). Air-stone added and temperature controlled by holding container in tank.

On 4/1/2023 at 8:00am noticed white lesions on opposite side of fish have roughly doubled in size.

On 4/1/2023 at 11:00am preformed skin scrape and wet mount slide. No signs of uronema.

My first thought is acute toxicity from possible over dosage of KanaPlex. Perhaps, I should have used my mg scale.

Looking for feedback on best course of action.

Link to video of skin scrape wet mount slide microscope.
Link to video specimen in holding container for close up view of lesions

IMG_6661.jpg IMG_6662.jpg IMG_6664.png IMG_6665.png IMG_6667.png side.top.png skide.png tank.png

Need brighter pics and not with fish out of water. The breathing is partially labored and too many treatment scenarios thrown at this fish daily. Kanaplex is not a bath nor should be used daily , but rather every other day for bacterial issue. Amquel and turbostart will not manage ammonia but bind it temporarily until water change is performed which reduces ammonia.
You have substrate in the QT tank which is absorbing some of the treatment although not significantly.
For a bath, a 60-90 minute bath using Ruby Rally Pro with aeration is best and safest. Thereafter, reset the QT with freshly made seawater and Monitor ammonia with a reliable test kit, utilizing added Oxygen.
While this may be bacterial, need better lighting to assess the area
 
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The fish at no point was removed from the water. I placed the specimen in a holding container to take the best possible pictures of a moving target.

If I had a dollar for each time someone has written on this site, need better pictures.

You are correct about amquel but incorrect about turbostart. Turbostart 900 is a live nitrifying bacteria culture. The amquel was added as a stop gap to allow the bio filter time to acclimate to the new demands.

The substrate is silica sand, there are wrasses in the aquarium. The sand is not aragonite basedThe only active treatment in the aquarium is copper safe. Copper is monitored daily using a hanna checker.

Ammonia is also monitored with a Hanna checker.

I will post new photos.

I will also preform a gram stain.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for the thorough post, lots of data to go through!

The microscope video isn't something that we see very often here, but unless you saw moving protozoans or flukes, not much can be told from that. I didn't see anything that caught my eye during the video, did you see any movement?

In the whole fish video, I can't rule out some ich trophonts on the pectoral fins, and possibly the back. How did you treat with ich, and are you sure it isn't still present in the tank?

I understand the reasoning behind the technique of "high dose, short period" antibiotic baths. I just don't like to use that method due to the extra handling. In many cases with external bacterial infections, the crux of the issue is some physical damage. Catching the fish up for 3 to 4 hour baths can add to that. In addition, Kanamycin is known to cause kidney toxicity in some fish, presumably, that chance increases at higher doses. Personally, I'd use 250 mg Neomycin per half gallon (double the normal dose) for 3 to 4 hours daily.

Jay
 
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Jay Hemdal

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The fish at no point was removed from the water. I placed the specimen in a holding container to take the best possible pictures of a moving target.

If I had a dollar for each time someone has written on this site, need better pictures.

You are correct about amquel but incorrect about turbostart. Turbostart 900 is a live nitrifying bacteria culture. The amquel was added as a stop gap to allow the bio filter time to acclimate to the new demands.

The substrate is silica sand, there are wrasses in the aquarium. The sand is not aragonite basedThe only active treatment in the aquarium is copper safe. Copper is monitored daily using a hanna checker.

Ammonia is also monitored with a Hanna checker.

I will post new photos.

I will also preform a gram stain.

Good photos are tough to get - and without them, we are left guessing (I hate to guess!).

If you run a stain, I can pretty much guarantee you they will stain negative. Trouble is, you may have difficulty determining if the stained organism is the pathogen, or just normal.

Jay
 
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This picture shows the lower abdominal injury that elicited treatment. Subsequent to treatment with KanaPlex other skin disorder on opposing side manifested.








 
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If you run a stain, I can pretty much guarantee you they will stain negative.
I agree, hardly worth the effort or stress to the fish.

Kanamycin is known to cause kidney toxicity in some fish
Yes, was aware of this toxicity, but unfortunately this is the only broad spectrum antibiotic I had on hand that was not expired besides amoxicillin and erythromycin. The latter, and correct me if I'm mistaken are not first line choices for skin infections. It's not just nephrotoxic to fish. Is there any information available on the threshold of toxicity? A quick google search did not show any results for aquatic life toxicity in SERPS.

I now have on hand.
Amoxicillin
Erythromycin
Kanamycin (KanaPlex)
Enrofloxcian
Neomycin (Neoplex)

Arriving Monday
Nitrofurazone
Ciprofloxacin


Specimen is still eating as of today.

The secondary lesions do not appear red, inflamed or open to muscular tissue. Could the specimen's slime coat have become damaged from the more aggressive Kanamycin treatment?

Absolutely, 100% certain cryptocaryon irritans is still in the QT system, day 2 of copper safe treatment. Also nearly 100% certain these specimens have flukes. Former owner informed me he did not quarantine.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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I'm still "seeing" ich trophonts on this fish. If that is correct, you are probably seeing mucus/secondary bacterial infections due to that. Treating the secondary infection is important, but not as important as dealing with the primary. Keep the fish in full copper and dose with Neomycin.

You mentioned possible Flukes, that adds another layer of complexity to this....I've never tried copper, prazi and an antibiotic at the same time.


Jay
 
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I'm still "seeing" ich trophonts on this fish.
Indeed, clearing up slowly.

You mentioned possible Flukes, that adds another layer of complexity to this....I've never tried copper, prazi and an antibiotic at the same time.
The flukes will have to wait for their moment with Prozquantal. First need to eradicate the irritans and treat this specimen for its secondary bacterial infection. If absolutely necessary I will buy time with FW baths. However all specimens are eating well and acting relatively normal.

I do have an unrelated question from an interesting observation. A few Asterina starfish managed to make their way into the QT system from the original specimen owners system. Likely from the sand scooped up with the wrasse. I later siphoned the cup or two of aragonite sand out before copper safe was administered. I’m in astonishment these Asterina stars are on day three of copper safe treatment and still going strong. Will copp

 
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Indeed, clearing up slowly.


The flukes will have to wait for their moment with Prozquantal. First need to eradicate the irritans and treat this specimen for its secondary bacterial infection. If absolutely necessary I will buy time with FW baths. However all specimens are eating well and acting relatively normal.

I do have an unrelated question from an interesting observation. A few Asterina starfish managed to make their way into the QT system from the original specimen owners system. Likely from the sand scooped up with the wrasse. I later siphoned the cup or two of aragonite sand out before copper safe was administered. I’m in astonishment these Asterina stars are on day three of copper safe treatment and still going strong. Will copp


I've seen hermit crabs survive coppersafe, but I've never tried Asterina, surprising though.
What is your coppersafe reading today?

Jay
 
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Current copper level 2.67ppm averaged over two test. Fluctuation due to evaporation I suspect.

Condition of specimen appears to have declined, still accepting food.

Treatment of two consecutive days with Neoplex, ~ 2 gallon container, 2 level scoops (135mg*2=270mg neoplex total) @ 43% neomycin sulfate, (neoplex is 43% neomycin sulfate, 57% excipients). That would place the concentration at 58.05mg neomycin sulfate/gallon correct?
Personally, I'd use 250 mg Neomycin per half gallon (double the normal dose) for 3 to 4 hours daily.
Should I have dosed the neoplex at 8 scoops per gallon?
58.05mg neomycin sulfate per level Neoplex measuring spoon.
500/58.05= 8.6 scoops.
Thus, around 17.2 scoops of neoplex for two gallons?















 
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Would it be merited to remove the specimen into an isolated 20 gallon aquarium with sponge air filter at this moment?

This would allow me to medicate at normal dosage for neomycin sulfate (250mg/gallon) and preform 90% water changes every 12hrs to control ammonia.
 
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