Snowflake eel is in rough shape

[GARRIGA]

Safer than a WC? What's the negatives of a water change, wouldn't that always be considered the safer route?

My concern with large WC centers around getting the main parameters matched close enough to avoid shock. Similar to acclimating fish but in reverse.

 

[MnFish1]

What I believe happened is that chemiclean is essentially an anti biotic. You are seeing the after effects of your cycling bacteria dying off from the chemi clean treatment.

My eel has been through chemi clean as well and no ill effects.

Curious - if chemiclean 'killed the cycling bacteria', wouldn't the nitrate be low? To get the nitrate from 'normal (lets say 5) to 160 in a matter of days there would have had to be a big ammonia spike - yet all the other fish are 'fine'.

PS - Unless overdosed - I don't believe chemiclean would be a 'death sentence'

 

[MnFish1]

I know people that smoke that do not have lung cancer, today. There are many variables as to the individual and the specific tznk conditions while dosing. including aeration and dosage. I have literally seen dozens of eels die after their tanks have been treated with chemiclean. While I have never cut open an eel, I have cut up many lions after clemicleen deaths and seen the liver damage myself. Eels and lions have many things in common as to their response to chemicals, and requirement to diet for that matter. Liver failure can take a year or more after the initial exposure, some initial damage maybe minimal and you will never connect it when it happens at a later time. Moray eels live 20-30 years in the wild while most hobbyist are lucky to keep them 2 years in captivity. So pay me no mind and keep exposing your fish to chemicals.

Thanks for the explanation. Again - I'm not arguing with you - I'm curious though - if 'most people are luck to keep them for 2 years' - what are they dying from? I would guess that most people don't use chemiclean once.

 

[lion king]

Thanks for the explanation. Again - I'm not arguing with you - I'm curious though - if 'most people are luck to keep them for 2 years' - what are they dying from? I would guess that most people don't use chemiclean once.

It's a culmination of many things. The small moray eels should be living in captivity for 15 years, not 2. Most feed horrible diets but there's also the damage of chemical exposure. People think somehow because the eel didn't start seizing and dying on the spot that the chemical didn't contribute to their death. Eels are very sensitive to everything from copper to tank cleaners, it damages their liver, and liver failure isn't overnight.

From the what the poster said, IME it points to effects of a chemical poisoning. Whether that was copper that may have come from a previous source, or to the use of chemiclean, or to some unknown source.

 

[vetteguy53081]

No chemiClean and as suspected- High nitrates. As suggested early this morning- do that water change and increase aeration

 

[vetteguy53081]

Safer than a WC? What's the negatives of a water change, wouldn't that always be considered the safer route?

Do not use nopox- Water change is essential. Vodka dosing again . . . sudden changes in water conditions will be an issue. You cant pour in NoPox and regard as a solution

 

[GARRIGA]

Do not use nopox- Water change is essential. Vodka dosing again . . . sudden changes in water conditions will be an issue. You cant pour in NoPox and regard as a solution

How's the sudden drop from NoPox different than the sudden drop from a massive WC?

 

[GARRIGA]

BTW, as for nutrition. I acquired Hikari Massivore Delight to feed my upcoming eels but now using to supplement my nassarius. It's formulated for predators. supposedly well balanced. Haven't tried on the latter but it's got a scent and my snails come out instantly and track it down.

Don't think shrimp alone is a staple diet and don't recall what I fed my snowflake in the 90s but I recall it was various food items and only twice per week.

 

[WVNed]

It's a culmination of many things. The small moray eels should be living in captivity for 15 years, not 2. Most feed horrible diets but there's also the damage of chemical exposure. People think somehow because the eel didn't start seizing and dying on the spot that the chemical didn't contribute to their death. Eels are very sensitive to everything from copper to tank cleaners, it damages their liver, and liver failure isn't overnight.

From the what the poster said, IME it points to effects of a chemical poisoning. Whether that was copper that may have come from a previous source, or to the use of chemiclean, or to some unknown source.

Or perhaps it gives them brain cancer or kidney failure. I am not sure why you fixate on liver failure. I doubt the liver function of an eel or lion is significantly different than most other marine fishes.
I worked in a drugstore for 17 years. If pumping "chemicals" into your body caused liver failure half the people on Earth would be dead now.
As for the 2 year thing it has been my experience that peoples attention span ends there and they stop caring for their tank. Then everything dies except the algae and they get rid of it.

 

[vetteguy53081]

How's the sudden drop from NoPox different than the sudden drop from a massive WC?

NoPox will turn water cloudy but moreso is that not only will it make your skimmer go crazy but it will remove traces of iodine and various trace elements in which you will have to replenish them and also create excessive skimmate removing certain nutrients and even bottom them out.
Water change will reduce nitrate and restore the elements.

 

[lion king]

Or perhaps it gives them brain cancer or kidney failure. I am not sure why you fixate on liver failure. I doubt the liver function of an eel or lion is significantly different than most other marine fishes.
I worked in a drugstore for 17 years. If pumping "chemicals" into your body caused liver failure half the people on Earth would be dead now.
As for the 2 year thing it has been my experience that peoples attention span ends there and they stop caring for their tank. Then everything dies except the algae and they get rid of it.

Here is an image of a lion's liver about a year after treatment with antibiotics, I have seen much worse, even ones liquidized. The black decomposition should not be there. The metabolism in predator fish are different, and it's pretty much common knowledge that eels and lions do not tolerate many meds or chemicals. Working in a drug store you must see how sickly most people are, and humans do live longer than most fish and somehow this human body can take alot of abuse, but it does take it's toll. If you know about metabolism then you know this mechanism will process toxins.

 

[MnFish1]

It's a culmination of many things. The small moray eels should be living in captivity for 15 years, not 2. Most feed horrible diets but there's also the damage of chemical exposure. People think somehow because the eel didn't start seizing and dying on the spot that the chemical didn't contribute to their death. Eels are very sensitive to everything from copper to tank cleaners, it damages their liver, and liver failure isn't overnight.

From the what the poster said, IME it points to effects of a chemical poisoning. Whether that was copper that may have come from a previous source, or to the use of chemiclean, or to some unknown source.

Thanks!

 

[lion king]

This is not an image of an eel suffering from high nitrates. Eels can live years in nitrates off the charts, and many do. An eel would not just collapse after eating a few days earlier, at worse if nitrates were the problem, he would have went off feeding much earlier as an indicator.

 

[MnFish1]

This is not an image of an eel suffering from high nitrates. Eels can live years in nitrates off the charts, and many do. An eel would not just collapse after eating a few days earlier, at worse if nitrates were the problem, he would have went off feeding much earlier as an indicator.

This thread - unfortunately - illustrates some of the positives - and negatives of R2R. One person says a temperature change from 74 to 76 can affect eels, another says they are 'hardy - and easy'. You make a valid comment about chemicals. But in the end - we really dont know - or am I wrong? (BTW - I agree this is not a nitrate issue) - as @vetteguy53081 says - the fish is moribund - and does not seem likely to survive.

 

[dvgyfresh]

I’d agree with lion king on this one , nitrates are not the issue , eels can survive very dirty water , they hang in tide pools for hours. I would guess chemical/disease/parasite or malnutrition

 

[lion king]

This thread - unfortunately - illustrates some of the positives - and negatives of R2R. One person says a temperature change from 74 to 76 can affect eels, another says they are 'hardy - and easy'. You make a valid comment about chemicals. But in the end - we really dont know - or am I wrong? (BTW - I agree this is not a nitrate issue) - as @vetteguy53081 says - the fish is moribund - and does not seem likely to survive.

This discussion is exactly what is great about R2r, this hobby is not absolute, and many times you discover something you never considered. And sometimes there is no definitive answer.

 

[lion king]

I’d agree with lion king on this one , nitrates are not the issue , eels can survive very dirty water , they hang in tide pools for hours. I would guess chemical/disease/parasite or malnutrition

Parasites and disease would also show earlier indicators. Eels can live months with internal parasites and would stop eating much earlier to indicate that this is taking it's toll. While velvet can move quickly, eels are very resistant to protozoan diseases, and no other fish has been indicated, I do stand by my initial analysis of chemical or malnutrition, with chemical being most likely. There are earlier signs of malnutrition as well, like previously being hard to feed and a more lengthy period of lethargy.

 

[MnFish1]

This discussion is exactly what is great about R2r, this hobby is not absolute, and many times you discover something you never considered. And sometimes there is no definitive answer.

Right - thats what I said.

 

[MnFish1]

Parasites and disease would also show earlier indicators. Eels can live months with internal parasites and would stop eating much earlier to indicate that this is taking it's toll. While velvet can move quickly, eels are very resistant to protozoan diseases, and no other fish has been indicated, I do stand by my initial analysis of chemical or malnutrition, with chemical being most likely. There are earlier signs of malnutrition as well, like previously being hard to feed and a more lengthy period of lethargy.

I was mostly interested in your opinion - as to (lets say besides diet - and people buying them in the wrong tank) - why they do not do well.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Well, initial results show that somehow, my Nitrates are off the friggin charts, I'm redoing that because I honestly don't believe they're that high and I'm not experiencing a mass extinction... I just did a 33% water change a week ago, so I have no idea what's going on...

Ph: 8.1
Ammonia: .35
Nitrite: 0 (rock bottom... this concerns me)
Nitrate: >160 PPM (seriously, the vial went bright red in a minute. Redoing this currently)
Phosphate: 1-2
Calcium: 400

Why is there ammonia in the tank? This is a red flag and possibly the issue, maybe probably. If he has been exposed to .35 ammonia longterm, that is not good! Put sechem prime in now to neutralize the ammonia. Has everybody else missed this???