Something is up with my Dunkan. HELP!

[boeingn747]

I got this wwc lavender duncan coral sometime in Dec. It has done great up until the past 3 weeks I'd say. It has gotten bigger, the head had great polyp extention. It ate well, it looks like it is starting to grow a new head, maybe. Anyway the past couple weeks it's been going down hill. I posted about it and nothing really came of that post. I ended up doing a Bayer dip at a dose of 5ml to 1cup tank water for 10min. That did not leave much of an explanation. Since the dip it has really failed to open past what you see in the picture. It never closes up tighter than this but doesn't open up more. I only worrie because I had a Duncan in the past that did a similar thing and then died. I am trying to prevent that this time.
Please give me something to try or a medicated dip to try or something.
My water parameters are as follows
Temp- 78
Ph- 8
SG- 35PPT
AMM- 0
NITRITE- 0
NITRATE- 10-15
PHOS- .05
CA- 410
MAG- 1400
ALK- 8.1

 

[Pistondog]

I would not dip unless you observe a specific pest.
Any changes, lights?

 

[boeingn747]

I would not dip unless you observe a specific pest.
Any changes, lights?

None!

 

[boeingn747]

None!

I had red cyno so I dosed chemiclean per the directions. This was 1 month ago. I have since done 3 water changes.

 

[Dkmoo]

Probably water parameters related. How stable are those readings? How much does it change daily?

Possibly the chemiclean and subsequent water change shocked an already fragile frag (from tank immaturity/instability) and pushed it over the edge.

Taking it out and and dipping probably ticked it off even more.

I would leave it alone and let it resettle. Keep water flow around it low. Feed a little bit at night if it has feeding response. Spray some Restor around it

If truly nothing has changed, then it really points to a long term accumulation of something negative and a slow decline. Corals usually have mechanism to maintain homeostasis so probably when you just got it, it had be very healthy in WWc. Something you your tank isn't ideal but not drastic enough to cause immediate negative reaction. So while it still opened and ate and maintained an outward appearance of doing well, on the inside it is slowly deteriorating until it can't maintain homeostasis any more and crash.

If you were having cyano and using chemicals to rid of it, I'd think your tank is still immature and unstable.

 

[JCM]

You mentioned a picture but I'm not seeing one?

 

[boeingn747]

You mentioned a picture but I'm not seeing one?

Sorry about that.

 

[boeingn747]

Probably water parameters related. How stable are those readings? How much does it change daily?

Possibly the chemiclean and subsequent water change shocked an already fragile frag (from tank immaturity/instability) and pushed it over the edge.

Taking it out and and dipping probably ticked it off even more.

I would leave it alone and let it resettle. Keep water flow around it low. Feed a little bit at night if it has feeding response. Spray some Restor around it

If truly nothing has changed, then it really points to a long term accumulation of something negative and a slow decline. Corals usually have mechanism to maintain homeostasis so probably when you just got it, it had be very healthy in WWc. Something you your tank isn't ideal but not drastic enough to cause immediate negative reaction. So while it still opened and ate and maintained an outward appearance of doing well, on the inside it is slowly deteriorating until it can't maintain homeostasis any more and crash.

If you were having cyano and using chemicals to rid of it, I'd think your tank is still immature and unstable.

Thank you for your feed back. I will say that my tank parameters are stable for the most part. I did have what I would call a alk swing. I was dosing alk daily but over the course of a few months it dropped down to 7.1. I then raised it back up to 8.0 over the next two weeks. I don't really know how bad a .9 point swing is, but in my mind I didn't think it was good but didn't bother to consider it in this situ. I also figured that raising it over a 2 week period would be ok. Maybe that has something to do with it. Is it just a ride or die type of situation at this point? Not sure what else to do. Also not sure of what restor is.

 

[boeingn747]

I got this wwc lavender duncan coral sometime in Dec. It has done great up until the past 3 weeks I'd say. It has gotten bigger, the head had great polyp extention. It ate well, it looks like it is starting to grow a new head, maybe. Anyway the past couple weeks it's been going down hill. I posted about it and nothing really came of that post. I ended up doing a Bayer dip at a dose of 5ml to 1cup tank water for 10min. That did not leave much of an explanation. Since the dip it has really failed to open past what you see in the picture. It never closes up tighter than this but doesn't open up more. I only worrie because I had a Duncan in the past that did a similar thing and then died. I am trying to prevent that this time.
Please give me something to try or a medicated dip to try or something.
My water parameters are as follows
Temp- 78
Ph- 8
SG- 35PPT
AMM- 0
NITRITE- 0
NITRATE- 10-15
PHOS- .05
CA- 410
MAG- 1400
ALK- 8.1

I would not dip unless you observe a specific pest.
Any changes, lights?

No changes really. I did lower the white channel by 10 during my red cyno outbreak. My lights run 1-99 and I keep the whites at 35 normally and I turned them down to 25 for a week during the cyno outbreak.
I guess I didn't think that was a change thus I didn't mention it previously.

 

[Dkmoo]

Thank you for your feed back. I will say that my tank parameters are stable for the most part. I did have what I would call a alk swing. I was dosing alk daily but over the course of a few months it dropped down to 7.1. I then raised it back up to 8.0 over the next two weeks. I don't really know how bad a .9 point swing is, but in my mind I didn't think it was good but didn't bother to consider it in this situ. I also figured that raising it over a 2 week period would be ok. Maybe that has something to do with it. Is it just a ride or die type of situation at this point? Not sure what else to do. Also not sure of what restor is.

Np,

Brightwell Restor is an amino acid supplement. Generally used in new frags to help it recover.

At this point since we can't pinpoint any specific "sudden change" causes, its hard to know which specific target treatment would be effective so instead I would just try to make the environment as stable and as perfect as you can and provide it with the nutrition it needs to naturally get healthy again.

If in deed it is a param/stability issue, then first step is you make sure yiur readings are accurate, then do daily testing for a few days/week to make sure you have a better idea of how much daily swings are. Once you have an accurate picture on the daily consumption, then you can devise a plan to keep it stable, whether that means daily dosing, every few days, or weekly.

Also factor in the swing when you do WC depending on how far apart yiur params are compared to newly mixed SW.

For light, I'm guessing based on what you said you have a fancy LED that yiu can dial and adjust. Thats one of the biggest traps bc it makes us itch to try to tweak it just bc we can. For LEDs we should just set it and forget it. Of you must make changes, do it with 1% change per day or use the "acclimation mode" if yiu have the ai prime. When you changed your white from 35 to 25, that may seem like just a small 10% change, but really to the corals that's a 30% relative decrease in light. That may very well have had a detrimental effect - esp to an already weak frag (if our hypothesis that long term param instability has weakened it)

In terms of your current params from what you posted, I don't see anything thats off. For my mixed reef, i personally prefer to keep the Alk a bit higher at 9 (BRSTV has a video on why). Ph i like 8.2 - i personally believe higher pH is super important to keep stony corals hardy and healthy and act as a safety blanket against other "imperfections" in the params/light/ or other environmental stressors. BRSTV also has a few good videos on pH. CA i like 450. Again what you have currently isn't bad so stability is more important in the short term. If you do want to change, do it slowly over a month, and only do so if yiu can keep the new numbers stable as well

 

[boeingn747]

Np,

Brightwell Restor is an amino acid supplement. Generally used in new frags to help it recover.

At this point since we can't pinpoint any specific "sudden change" causes, its hard to know which specific target treatment would be effective so instead I would just try to make the environment as stable and as perfect as you can and provide it with the nutrition it needs to naturally get healthy again.

If in deed it is a param/stability issue, then first step is you make sure yiur readings are accurate, then do daily testing for a few days/week to make sure you have a better idea of how much daily swings are. Once you have an accurate picture on the daily consumption, then you can devise a plan to keep it stable, whether that means daily dosing, every few days, or weekly.

Also factor in the swing when you do WC depending on how far apart yiur params are compared to newly mixed SW.

For light, I'm guessing based on what you said you have a fancy LED that yiu can dial and adjust. Thats one of the biggest traps bc it makes us itch to try to tweak it just bc we can. For LEDs we should just set it and forget it. Of you must make changes, do it with 1% change per day or use the "acclimation mode" if yiu have the ai prime. When you changed your white from 35 to 25, that may seem like just a small 10% change, but really to the corals that's a 30% relative decrease in light. That may very well have had a detrimental effect - esp to an already weak frag (if our hypothesis that long term param instability has weakened it)

In terms of your current params from what you posted, I don't see anything thats off. For my mixed reef, i personally prefer to keep the Alk a bit higher at 9 (BRSTV has a video on why). Ph i like 8.2 - i personally believe higher pH is super important to keep stony corals hardy and healthy and act as a safety blanket against other "imperfections" in the params/light/ or other environmental stressors. BRSTV also has a few good videos on pH. CA i like 450. Again what you have currently isn't bad so stability is more important in the short term. If you do want to change, do it slowly over a month, and only do so if yiu can keep the new numbers stable as well

Ok, let me try to unpack that a bit. I do use ai prime lighting. It's a 75 gal tank 4' long. I use a 12hr light cycle. I personally felt at the time that reducing the white light would help me slow this cyno (just what I thought). I did that for 1 week. As far as parameters in general I have a meticulous testing ritual doing everything the same everytime. So if I am off at least it is consistent. I use hanna checkers for phos, alk, and ca. However I mostly use the red sea test for ca, mag. I use the sailfert nitrate test and api for ammonia and nitrite. I test ammonia and nitrite monthly. Nitrate every other week. Phos weekly, CA, alk every other day typically. I have a detailed log with all readings, when I do water changes and how much. When I change gfo, or carbon. When I change di resins. I change my di resins when tds reaches 2. I also note that when I am using ro water with a starting tds of 2. I try to be as detailed as possible so I can detect things as quickly as possible. As far as ph is concerned I believe I had checked it later in the evening when making this post which in my experience explains the lower ph. I run red sea blue pail salt and run my reef at a Consistent 35ppt. I try to keep my parameters where my water naturally mixes at so when I do a water change I do not have any swings. I always run a poly filter in the sump as an emergency back up. I replace them every 30 to 45 days or when they get nasty. I run a skimmer 24/7 unless I am feeding. I feed corals reef roids and red sea A B + on a alternating basis twice a week (once a week each) I feed only frozen food to my fish (san Francisco bay) I alternate between about 5 different frozen offerings. I also hatch baby brine shrimp and feed them once a week or so. I feel like I have a fairly good pod count so there is usually food available for my file fish, leopard wrasse etc. I am not sure what else to add other than I am very diligent about water quality. I will note that I do not have a dosing pump on this tank currently. I dose brs 2 part new pharma daily. That is why I do the alk and ca tests daily to every other. I wish I could give you more to solve the problem. Sounds like you know your stuff when talking about reefing. Let me know if there is anything you take away from how I do things. Thanks

 

[boeingn747]

Ok, let me try to unpack that a bit. I do use ai prime lighting. It's a 75 gal tank 4' long. I use a 12hr light cycle. I personally felt at the time that reducing the white light would help me slow this cyno (just what I thought). I did that for 1 week. As far as parameters in general I have a meticulous testing ritual doing everything the same everytime. So if I am off at least it is consistent. I use hanna checkers for phos, alk, and ca. However I mostly use the red sea test for ca, mag. I use the sailfert nitrate test and api for ammonia and nitrite. I test ammonia and nitrite monthly. Nitrate every other week. Phos weekly, CA, alk every other day typically. I have a detailed log with all readings, when I do water changes and how much. When I change gfo, or carbon. When I change di resins. I change my di resins when tds reaches 2. I also note that when I am using ro water with a starting tds of 2. I try to be as detailed as possible so I can detect things as quickly as possible. As far as ph is concerned I believe I had checked it later in the evening when making this post which in my experience explains the lower ph. I run red sea blue pail salt and run my reef at a Consistent 35ppt. I try to keep my parameters where my water naturally mixes at so when I do a water change I do not have any swings. I always run a poly filter in the sump as an emergency back up. I replace them every 30 to 45 days or when they get nasty. I run a skimmer 24/7 unless I am feeding. I feed corals reef roids and red sea A B + on a alternating basis twice a week (once a week each) I feed only frozen food to my fish (san Francisco bay) I alternate between about 5 different frozen offerings. I also hatch baby brine shrimp and feed them once a week or so. I feel like I have a fairly good pod count so there is usually food available for my file fish, leopard wrasse etc. I am not sure what else to add other than I am very diligent about water quality. I will note that I do not have a dosing pump on this tank currently. I dose brs 2 part new pharma daily. That is why I do the alk and ca tests daily to every other. I wish I could give you more to solve the problem. Sounds like you know your stuff when talking about reefing. Let me know if there is anything you take away from how I do things. Thanks

I forgot, I also add vibrant every three weeks.

 

[Dkmoo]

I forgot, I also add vibrant every three weeks.

How old is tank? Also got a tank shot?

 

[Dkmoo]

I forgot, I also add vibrant every three weeks.

Sry one more question - how much are you dosing per day? Also the brs alk im assuming is the mixer soda ash powder right?

 

[boeingn747]

Sry one more question - how much are you dosing per day? Also the brs alk im assuming is the mixer soda ash powder right?

Yes you are right. I dose 15ml per day of alk and 5ml per day ca. I don't really dose magnesium much. Water changes once a week takes care of that.

 

[boeingn747]

How old is tank? Also got a tank shot?

I have a older tank shot I think. Ill have to take a updated shot. The tank in question is 8mo old. I also have a 120 reef tjay is 3 years or so and a 22.4 fiji cube all in one that is new only 2-3mo old.

 

[boeingn747]

I have a older tank shot I think. Ill have to take a updated shot. The tank in question is 8mo old. I also have a 120 reef tjay is 3 years or so and a 22.4 fiji cube all in one that is new only 2-3mo old.

Sorry here is a picture of it from a few months ago.

 

[Dkmoo]

Thats a nice looking tank!

Your husbandry description sounds pretty spot on too. Only things I can think of is for the alk, do you just one dose daily or multiple smaller doses through out the day? Soda ash can temporarily increase pH. I do 15ml daily in my tank too but I have an autodoser so its a bit easier I split it into 3 5ml doses at noon, 8pm and 4am so it doesn't cause too much swing for both alk and pH. The 2 doses at night also help with the night time pH drop.

How are the acros doing? If they have been doing fine then that points to less likely water issues since they are generally more sensitive than duncans. So if they are fine then maybe its just something off with that specific frag - after all not all heads are created equal.

Other non water param related cause to look at is if something next to it is grown too big and start to sting or chemical war fare? Esp look for those thats upstream from it.

On the red cyano front - did that start happening right after you started dosing vibrant? That's a common side effect. Vibrant is very effective at what it does but also can alter your nutrient cycles equilibrium. What it does is kill algae, which increases nutrient levels that now will need to be absorbed by something else. Corals take a part of it, ur skimmer takes another part, and the rest are absorbed by bacteria. Vibrant also contains carbon which it use to fuel the algae eating bacteria but also feeds other bacteria. This generally leads to a temporarily cyano growth. It should go away on its own.

For this reason I only use vibrant as a temporary tool to treat spefics algae that I can't get rid of via other means like the valonia im dealing with now. I have red cyano too. I just blow it off and scoop it out.

 

[SaltwaterGuruNeeded]

I forgot, I also add vibrant every three weeks.

I have heard stories about vibrant ruining their tanks. Be careful with that stuff.