Sps high nutrients myth?

[gus6464]

I absolutely agree with that statement, but it speaks nothing to bacterial populations and the swings in one type versus another. There is a virtual microbial war going on in our tanks in the first year which IMO has a direct effect on the health of SPS in particular. Just my opinion, I don't expect others to have to bend to agree to it.

So a question for you.

Let's say someone sets up a new tank. Goes through the cycle and whatnot and makes sure parameters are stable by sending in a triton test. Triton test comes back all green so stocking begins. Main parameters are checked on a daily basis and everything is in check. Then every month like clockwork a triton test is sent out and parameters still all green. Tank is growing acropora no problem. This person keeps doing the testing constantly and sends out the triton test every month like clockwork with no changes.

Even though this tank is not a year old you still wouldn't call it stable?

Tanks like this are insanely common with zeovit. It's not because of something happening behind the scenes but it's because zeo requires a very stringent methodology which requires the user to be on top of things a lot more than a less hands off approach because of all the dosing, tumbling of zeolite every day, etc.

Triton method is also similar as it requires stringent testing and dosing which has to be done by the user.

In a lot of the "sps keep dying" threads you rarely find a person who has a normal testing schedule. Most people only tend to test when something starts to look wrong vs having a strict testing schedule to try to find the problems before they occur. If you start testing when stuff is starting to die then it's already too late.

The zeo and triton people I know test constantly to the point of it being an obsession. I get these methods require a considerably more hands on approach but most reefers would be well served to test often. Even if everything has been working great for the past 3 months still continue with a regular testing schedule.

 

[Thales]

I'll disagree a bit, at least with mega tanks. When your tank is made from a lot of concrete, it can take a while for things to work. Something smaller that you can essentially set up instantly.

 

[FarmerTy]

I guess we're talking two different points here. I do agree with your points, by measurable parameters, absolutely, it is stable. No question, numbers don't lie. 420 ppm of calcium is 420 ppm of calcium, 5 ppm of nitrates is 5 ppm of nitrates. You put this all together on standard parameters that would support SPS growth and you have a tank that will function and grow them.

What I am discussing is bacterial populations, the ebb and flow of more nitrifying bacterial population and less denitrifying, or vice versa. Even bacterial populations on the corals themselves ebb and flow in population. Nitrate usage going from more algae uptake to bacterial uptake, all of this increases and decreases until for me at least, after the first year, then most of the microbial wars have been fought out and the winner declared. Nutrient usage wars have been fought out and the balance reached. Homeostasis has been achieved. That is not to say that there aren't minute fluctuations, balances and counter balances within our system but the big wars have been fought already.

Something visual that can be witnessed is bacteria beating out algae and you don't hardly see your algae anymore. Of course this is on the basis of proper nutrient removal and not just some new reefer leaving everything alone and assuming it will all right itself.

I for one test alk daily still. I may skip a few days here and there but for the most part, the past 6 years I have woken up to an alk measurement. So is the life of an owner of a SPS-dominant tank. If I stopped testing would everything be fine? Most likely as my alk hardly ever waivers. Do I want to chance it, no.

I control my nitrate level to 1-2 ppm, if I want it at 8ppm, I adjust my biopellet reactor. If I want to move my phosphate level up, I adjust my GFO usage. I completely understand and agree with you regarding control of parameters and employ it myself, my point was more on the microbial side and nutrient usage balance (not just what your levels are at but what is up taking it).

Even now as my tank has "matured" and grown out, my GFO usage has decreased due to my larger coral mass uptaking the phosphate instead of residual amounts in the water column or algae using it.

 

[bif24701]

I think the theory that a coral tank is stable only after one year is based I new people and setups. It takes time for people to learn their system, how it works, maintenance, how it responds, and stocking changes. After one year things settle down and now becomes "stable" after one year.

That doesn't apply to everyone. I would agree that all new systems go through an "extended cycle". Meaning going through all the different blooms and growths that come and go as a system matures but this has little bearing on corals over all for the most part and is completed in less than 4-6 months. I still have acros from my 75 I started in last Feb and added in March. Those the corals didn't thrive like they did later but they grew.

 

[iiluisii]

So a question for you.

Let's say someone sets up a new tank. Goes through the cycle and whatnot and makes sure parameters are stable by sending in a triton test. Triton test comes back all green so stocking begins. Main parameters are checked on a daily basis and everything is in check. Then every month like clockwork a triton test is sent out and parameters still all green. Tank is growing acropora no problem. This person keeps doing the testing constantly and sends out the triton test every month like clockwork with no changes.

Even though this tank is not a year old you still wouldn't call it stable?

Tanks like this are insanely common with zeovit. It's not because of something happening behind the scenes but it's because zeo requires a very stringent methodology which requires the user to be on top of things a lot more than a less hands off approach because of all the dosing, tumbling of zeolite every day, etc.

Triton method is also similar as it requires stringent testing and dosing which has to be done by the user.

In a lot of the "sps keep dying" threads you rarely find a person who has a normal testing schedule. Most people only tend to test when something starts to look wrong vs having a strict testing schedule to try to find the problems before they occur. If you start testing when stuff is starting to die then it's already too late.

The zeo and triton people I know test constantly to the point of it being an obsession. I get these methods require a considerably more hands on approach but most reefers would be well served to test often. Even if everything has been working great for the past 3 months still continue with a regular testing schedule.

There is such of thing as a mature tank. Bacteria development takes a while to become stable to the point that the system pretty much handles it self. Also again I will repeat a young tank with just frag is a different ball game as a stable tank with colonies. Corals play a major role in nutrient uptake and when a tank is mature and the coral are colonies they are sucking nutrients faster than anything else in your tank.

 

[FarmerTy]

I think both points that Gus and I are making have their truths to them. From a viewpoint of measurable and controllable parameters, stable can be in the first week as long as you are diligent and manage any changes with swift action to correct.

From a bacterial and nutrient usage point of view, I think this continues on for awhile after the tank is established until a balance point is reached. This point is what I was originally hinting to being when I see my SPS happier and healthier at that one year mark than with just stable, MEASURABLE, parameters alone in the first year.

 

[Magem]

I started with reef aquarium in Jan 2010. When I decided to go to a sps dominated tank, a year ago, I had to quit all the sand because it was impossible to low phosphates and always cyano in the sand... over 1 unless I used GFO. When I quit the sand I realized how dirty it was!!! And it smelled horrible...it was unbeilable...since then my PO4 are always under 0,04. I though in going bare bottom but at the end I added a little sand for aesthetics reasons...

so if you find problems in lowering PO4 , maybe it is due to your sand...

 

[Vaughn17]

I guess this is pertinent to the conversation at hand but when I decided to run fallow for 76 days, I had dosed potassium nitrate to keep my nitrate levels around 5 ppm once I noticed the corals had lightened up.

Upon reintroduction of the fish, I had stopped dosing the potassium nitrate and allowed the feedings and fish poop to supplement nitrate. While maintaining the same nitrate levels, my coral colors took a major leap with the fish back in the tank. My theory is the particulate matter from the fish poop as well as the direct uptake of ammonia/ammonium resulted in the color difference, even though the same nitrate levels were maintained.

I agree. IMO, they prefer an actually food source as opposed to NO3 and PO4. I would think that most sps feed 24/7 on the reef.

 

[FarmerTy]

I started with reef aquarium in Jan 2010. When I decided to go to a sps dominated tank, a year ago, I had to quit all the sand because it was impossible to low phosphates and always cyano in the sand... over 1 unless I used GFO. When I quit the sand I realized how dirty it was!!! And it smelled horrible...it was unbeilable...since then my PO4 are always under 0,04. I though in going bare bottom but at the end I added a little sand for aesthetics reasons...

so if you find problems in lowering PO4 , maybe it is due to your sand...

Not sure who that was directed at but I think that is a prime example of my point about phosphate being the nastier of the two nutrients, mainly because of its ability to bind with the rock and sand. I bet your sandbed was leaching it like crazy after absorbing it over the years prior to you keeping SPS.

That's why I aim for a proactive approach to phosphate removal, I always use GFO even when I read zero, as I know I am constantly "dosing" it daily with my feeding regiment. I just don't want any chance for it to bind to anything ans give me issues down the road. Nitrates though I'm happy with them being at 5ppm roughly. Keeps my acros purdy! [emoji4]

 

[gus6464]

I guess we're talking two different points here. I do agree with your points, by measurable parameters, absolutely, it is stable. No question, numbers don't lie. 420 ppm of calcium is 420 ppm of calcium, 5 ppm of nitrates is 5 ppm of nitrates. You put this all together on standard parameters that would support SPS growth and you have a tank that will function and grow them.

What I am discussing is bacterial populations, the ebb and flow of more nitrifying bacterial population and less denitrifying, or vice versa. Even bacterial populations on the corals themselves ebb and flow in population. Nitrate usage going from more algae uptake to bacterial uptake, all of this increases and decreases until for me at least, after the first year, then most of the microbial wars have been fought out and the winner declared. Nutrient usage wars have been fought out and the balance reached. Homeostasis has been achieved. That is not to say that there aren't minute fluctuations, balances and counter balances within our system but the big wars have been fought already.

Something visual that can be witnessed is bacteria beating out algae and you don't hardly see your algae anymore. Of course this is on the basis of proper nutrient removal and not just some new reefer leaving everything alone and assuming it will all right itself.

I for one test alk daily still. I may skip a few days here and there but for the most part, the past 6 years I have woken up to an alk measurement. So is the life of an owner of a SPS-dominant tank. If I stopped testing would everything be fine? Most likely as my alk hardly ever waivers. Do I want to chance it, no.

I control my nitrate level to 1-2 ppm, if I want it at 8ppm, I adjust my biopellet reactor. If I want to move my phosphate level up, I adjust my GFO usage. I completely understand and agree with you regarding control of parameters and employ it myself, my point was more on the microbial side and nutrient usage balance (not just what your levels are at but what is up taking it).

Even now as my tank has "matured" and grown out, my GFO usage has decreased due to my larger coral mass uptaking the phosphate instead of residual amounts in the water column or algae using it.

I agree completely with your points and I guess what I am trying to get at is that a successful tank growing SPS at the wazoo at the 6 month mark or less is entirely possible with some work. Maturity to me consists of both the reefer and tank 50/50. You can't achieve tank maturity without the reefkeeper reaching that point first. When I first started out with SPS I never tested only once in a blue moon. Stuff wouldn't last long. On my second SPS tank I got into the habit of testing more and and things improved drastically. On my new tank I test religiously. The first thing I do every morning when I wake up is test alk and no3. I test ca, mg, and po4 once a week. I have found that chasing po4 seems to be a waste if you have no3. As long as the system has no3 everything looks fine. Too high or too low NO3 and the corals tell me right away it seems like. I added my first coral within 2 weeks of setup and my first SPS at 3 weeks. The frag looks the same as it did from the person's tank I got it from and it's growing.

Wouldn't you agree that the whole "your SPS are dying because your tank isn't mature" bit gets thrown around a lot? The first question people tend to ask is how old is the tank. If the person replies with anything less than a year then the conversation tends to shift to a "maturity" issue. If the tank is over a year old then it tends to shift to parameters and multiple testing. Why can't the latter also be relevant to the guy with the 6 month tank? If someone has a problem but all the standard parameters are in line with no glaring issues in husbandry then a Triton or any other ICP test should be recommended no matter how old the tank is. Who knows if the tank has high amounts of aluminum like some people had with marine pure at first. No one would have known that was the problem if they never did a meticulous test.

 

[LakeCityReefs]

I agree with a lot of these points regarding maturity however, I don't feel that there is an actual "Golden Moment" that we can measure. I believe that something "just happens" in the 12-18 month range where things we don't measure happen to stabilize. It doesn't mean that because my tank is 11 months old now it will be condtioned to a certain form in exactly one month from now.

I agree that the 1 year is traditionally allowing newer refeers time to practice husbandry and learn how to stabilize their parameters consistently.

This thread is about SPS and Nitrates, I believe that with this information being available newer reefers will have more options to consider rather than the old ULNS preachings.

I for one will avoid allowing my nutrients to hit 0 again and also move forward with fewer water changes.

To each their own, and what works in one reef may not work in another.

 

[Vaughn17]

IMO, new tanks have problems because people generally add fish before coral. I agree that it takes time to cultivate bacteria and inverts(like pods, brittle stars, peanut worms, spagetti worms, bristle worms, etc. that break down excess food, fish wastes, etc.), but adding fish to a system that has just cycled and has high NO3 is a recipe for algae, cyno, etc. Adding coral first and testing water parameters on a regular basis seems like a good method to expedite the maturing of a tank.

 

[Vaughn17]

The only thing I do by the seat of my pants.

 

[FarmerTy]

I agree completely with your points and I guess what I am trying to get at is that a successful tank growing SPS at the wazoo at the 6 month mark or less is entirely possible with some work. Maturity to me consists of both the reefer and tank 50/50. You can't achieve tank maturity without the reefkeeper reaching that point first. When I first started out with SPS I never tested only once in a blue moon. Stuff wouldn't last long. On my second SPS tank I got into the habit of testing more and and things improved drastically. On my new tank I test religiously. The first thing I do every morning when I wake up is test alk and no3. I test ca, mg, and po4 once a week. I have found that chasing po4 seems to be a waste if you have no3. As long as the system has no3 everything looks fine. Too high or too low NO3 and the corals tell me right away it seems like. I added my first coral within 2 weeks of setup and my first SPS at 3 weeks. The frag looks the same as it did from the person's tank I got it from and it's growing.

Wouldn't you agree that the whole "your SPS are dying because your tank isn't mature" bit gets thrown around a lot? The first question people tend to ask is how old is the tank. If the person replies with anything less than a year then the conversation tends to shift to a "maturity" issue. If the tank is over a year old then it tends to shift to parameters and multiple testing. Why can't the latter also be relevant to the guy with the 6 month tank? If someone has a problem but all the standard parameters are in line with no glaring issues in husbandry then a Triton or any other ICP test should be recommended no matter how old the tank is. Who knows if the tank has high amounts of aluminum like some people had with marine pure at first. No one would have known that was the problem if they never did a meticulous test.

Totally off-topic but my aluminum level with my marine pure blocks was 20x the recommended level by Triton with no issues.

I see what you're saying but not sure what can be done about it. How are we to affect change in really looking into issues versus the blanket statement of, oh, your tank is to new and not mature yet. Seems just like human nature. It's the same when a tank crashes after 5 years of running smoothly with no changes... Old tank syndrome, of course! When really, it was probably reefer apathy towards his tank. Less testing, less careful about maintenance, lack of attending to detail... But when it's easier to explain off, people will tend to head towards that option as an explanation.

 

[ReeferCub]

Here's my take on nutrients and coral health;
I started my current tank about 11 months ago. I added all types of coral in months 2-5. I particularly like SPS sticks and have had moderate success in past tanks.
I noticed that the SPS had great colors when I added them but about a month later they would begin to pale.
In the past I believed in keeping N03 P04 as low as possible. After reading some threads here on R2R I decided to start dosing Seachem Flourish to increase nitrates to 5 ppm. Unfortunately I was using an API test that wasn't registering N03 after 1 week of dosing a capful daily. I stopped dosing until my Salifert test arrived. My first test with Salifert revealed over 100 ppm N03.
Over the next few weeks I performed several water changes to reduce N03 to 50 ppm. My levels seemed to stay around 25 ppm for about 1 month and my corals were looking better.

I then went 4 months without a water change or testing N03. I tested N03 2 weeks ago and got a near 0 reading. I finally performed a 20% WC and have started dosing 1 cupful of Flourish weekly again. He have never had any visible amounts of algae on my rock. I clean a dusting of algae from my glass every 2-3 days. I have 2 snails and 4 hermits.

My system is 50 gallons with a moderate to high bioload. I use and replace about 1/2 cup carbon & 1/4 cup Phosguard monthly. I remove half of my calurpa monthly. I empty my skimmer cup 1 time a week.

Not saying my situation is perfect. I just wanted to share my experience in hopes that others won't be afraid of letting their corals have some dirty water to feed on

Beautiful tank!
Would you care to share details about your tank setup? Like lights? parameters? dosing additives?

 

[shoelaceike]

I always believe in each tank being its own little ecosystem and what works in one may not work in others.

For my own ecosystem, I employ heavy feeding and large fish populations to give my corals ample nutrients and food and counter it with aggressive nutrient removal to get rid of the wastes. In those respects, I aim to mimic the ocean as best as possible. Heavy import of food without the residual nutrient issues that come with it.

I feed 6x/day between a combo of pellets, nori, and frozen. And when I feed frozen (which is 2x/day), its a virtual snowstorm in there.

My nutrients are kept at 5-8 ppm nitrates and 0.03 ppm of phosphates. I've been able to run less phosphate removal media over the years as my coral mass has increased, helping become a nutrient sponge of its own.

Here's the latest tank video on my system.



Growth shots for fun. This is over a 4 month time span.

For my system, phosphates over 0.18 ppm brown my acros and some start to STN. Anything over 15 ppm of nitrates and my acros tend to look a little more brown but still healthy.[/QUOTE

Beautiful. Do you use filter socks?

 

[FarmerTy]

Thank you! I've been sockless for 12 years now. [emoji4] I run a no water change maintenance routine as well.

 

[shoelaceike]

Thank you! I've been sockless for 12 years now. [emoji4] I run a no water change maintenance routine as well.

Cool! What do you do to keep nitrates down?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Cool! What do you do to keep nitrates down?

buys more coral.

 

[shoelaceike]

Thats it?