Sps high nutrients myth?

[JBNY]

In my opinion, phosphate is like the smoking grenade in a lot of "old tank" syndromes.

I used to think that, until I had problems with my tank that would be considered "old tank syndrome", for me it turned out to not have anything to do with phosphates, it was trace elements.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

This is the one reason why I will never go without GFO but I admit its because I'm mostly paranoid. With increased nitrates, its as simple as water changes to remove the nitrates. Things don't accumulate over time and you can always do a reset with water changes with no repercussions.

With phosphate however, it can bind to your live rock so removal is not as straightforward and a potential accumulation effect could be occurring over time without you realizing it. You then realize its been binding to your rocks and start running GFO but even after it removes the phosphates from the water column, you still have it leaching over time from the rocks. You have to continue to run the GFO until it is entirely leached out to finally be rid of a phosphate issue. In my opinion, phosphate is like the smoking grenade in a lot of "old tank" syndromes.

I purposefully removed all GFO and carbon dosing as I thought they were causing problem with my inability to keep SPS a few years ago. I switched to an algae reactor and have never had to worry about N and P since.

Interestingly, as the systems have matured, I cant get the cyano to come back in general, despite increases and decreases in both nutrints over time, small changes in bio load, cal alk dosing etc.and feeding schedules and amounts. Im actually feeding a surprising amount to "the tank" and not the fish just keep the numbers up. That's always a bit scary IMO. When I just fed the fish both numbers plummeted.

 

[joekool]

Fish poo make corals grow well. But feed top quality foods like LRSfoods

 

[JBNY]

Which algae reactor do you run JBNY?

Also, do you really have 68 fish? If so, thats amazing! [emoji15]

and ARID C30 reactor, I just counted 58 fish sorry,

(2) Clown fish false percula (Amphiprion ocellaris)
(1) Coral Beauty (Centropyge bispinosus)
(1) Flameback Angelfish (Centropyge aurantonotus)
(4) Flame Angles (Centropyge loricula)
(1) Regal Hippo tang (Paracanthurus hepatus)
(5) Lyretail Anthias (Pseudanthias squamipinnis)
(1) Yellow Coris Wrasse (Halichoeres chrysus) Lost wrasse on 10/08/2015
(1) One spot foxface (Siganus unimaculatus)
(1) Longnose Hawkfish (Oxycirrhites typus)
(8) Yellow Assessor (Assessor flavissimus)
(1) Cleaner Wrasse
(5) Blue Star Leopard Wrasse
(1) Chalk Bass
(1) Hoeven's Wrasse
(2) Wheeler's Shrimp Goby
(13) Tukas Anthias
(10) Blue Chromis

here is a vid of me feeding the tank over the summer

 

[FarmerTy]

Interestingly, as the systems have matured, I cant get the cyano to come back in general, despite increases and decreases in both nutrints over time, small changes in bio load, cal alk dosing etc.and feeding schedules and amounts. Im actually feeding a surprising amount to "the tank" and not the fish just keep the numbers up. That's always a bit scary IMO. When I just fed the fish both numbers plummeted.

So when you feed your fish, your nitrates and phosphate levels plummeted?

 

[FarmerTy]

I used to think that, until I had problems with my tank that would be considered "old tank syndrome", for me it turned out to not have anything to do with phosphates, it was trace elements.

Sorry to keep probing but now I'm curious as to what trace elements you were missing? And how did you know they were deficient? Triton test?

Also, how did you rectify it?

I also employ no water changes, been about 3 years now so I'm curious what you felt like was the smoking gun so I can avoid it myself.

and ARID C30 reactor, I just counted 58 fish sorry,

(2) Clown fish false percula (Amphiprion ocellaris)
(1) Coral Beauty (Centropyge bispinosus)
(1) Flameback Angelfish (Centropyge aurantonotus)
(4) Flame Angles (Centropyge loricula)
(1) Regal Hippo tang (Paracanthurus hepatus)
(5) Lyretail Anthias (Pseudanthias squamipinnis)
(1) Yellow Coris Wrasse (Halichoeres chrysus) Lost wrasse on 10/08/2015
(1) One spot foxface (Siganus unimaculatus)
(1) Longnose Hawkfish (Oxycirrhites typus)
(8) Yellow Assessor (Assessor flavissimus)
(1) Cleaner Wrasse
(5) Blue Star Leopard Wrasse
(1) Chalk Bass
(1) Hoeven's Wrasse
(2) Wheeler's Shrimp Goby
(13) Tukas Anthias
(10) Blue Chromis

here is a vid of me feeding the tank over the summer

Oh man, I remember your video! That's awesome! I honestly wish I took your approach to fish stocking instead of my own. I like the numerous smaller fishes instead of a lesser amount of medium to larger fishes approach, especially to an SPS-dominant tank.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

So when you feed your fish, your nitrates and phosphate levels plummeted?

when Im cautious and feed "appropriately" yes. Trying to lower nutrints to kill algae, I experimented over time. No the algae did not die, but the zoas and shrooms almost croaked.
Fwiw, in my 55 the Po4 is higher than it has been for a while(momma got a black sun coral to rescue), and the bryopsis colonies are now crashing. Ive been in the .2 range for a few weeks now.

 

[JBNY]

Sorry to keep probing but now I'm curious as to what trace elements you were missing? And how did you know they were deficient? Triton test?

Also, how did you rectify it?

I also employ no water changes, been about 3 years now so I'm curious what you felt like was the smoking gun so I can avoid it myself.

Oh man, I remember your video! That's awesome! I honestly wish I took your approach to fish stocking instead of my own. I like the numerous smaller fishes instead of a lesser amount of medium to larger fishes approach, especially to an SPS-dominant tank.

So while I am pretty sure it was trace elements, it is only my best guess. I have an RC thread that I documented everything when trying to get the tank back on track, I kept very good maintenance records records of my tank. For over a year I had both N and P rock solid, N at 5ppm and P at 0.02 and I was still struggling to keep SPS. With no real apparent pattern acros would get burnt tips, bleach, RTN. Growth was almost nonexistent for acros in the tank for even as long as a year. I did finally start to see a pattern that everything would perk up and do better after a series of water changes (anywhere from 100 gallons to 400 gallons worth) but would steadily decline after that. Multiple Triton ICP tests showed nothing out of the ordinary. So after speaking to A LOT of people, it was suggested that maybe the tank was consuming trace elements that were needed by the acros. I played with some Brightwell Trace element solution and had some success for a while but ultimately started to have the exact same SPS issues. So I pulled my Ca reactor, switched to Triton Dosing (specifically because it was supposed to have added TE in their mix) and ALL my SPS problem stopped. That was the only change I made.

I have since looked into it more and feel that it was zinc and manganese that were deficient. I now dose my own mixture of Zinc, Manganese and Iodine in addition to dosing.

For the fish, yeah when I redid my tank years ago I specifically wanted to have lots of small fish rather than just a few large ones. Visually it is really cool, people come over and can look at the tank and keep seeing new things that they missed earlier as there are so many fish hiding in the rocks.

 

[Acroporaaddict]

After reading this thread I feel I need to get more No3 in my system. My acros are a little on the pale side. I feed heavy (2-4 cubes daily), dose 10ml acropower daily and have a high fish load (16 fish in a 60g) but my No3 is at .5ppm. I run my refugium light 24/7. Would I be better running my fuge light for less time or putting liquid no3 on my dosing pump?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I run my refugium light 24/7.

I would start by running the fuge opposite the DT.
the world according to Randy any way.http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php

 

[Acroporaaddict]

I would start by running the fuge opposite the DT.
the world according to Randy any way.http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php

I think I'll start with that. My fuge is roughly 7g it's stuffed full of cheato. I remove 50% of it weekly. The fuge has completely shut down my skimmer. I have no idea when I last emptied the cup. I basically use it for gas exchange now lol

 

[Robthorn]

I might look for something else that is depleted. You already have higher no3 than I do and my corals are not pale. Maybe higher no3 will mask a different issue. Who can say without trying?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I think I'll start with that. My fuge is roughly 7g it's stuffed full of cheato. I remove 50% of it weekly. The fuge has completely shut down my skimmer. I have no idea when I last emptied the cup. I basically use it for gas exchange now lol

haha. me too. Check that article out, yea you'll be getting more chato crowth, soory. but the DT will benefit by the fuge at night. Rather fascinating if you're into carbon exchange

 

[Robthorn]

Acroporaaddict when is the last time you cleaned the neck on your skimmer?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I might look for something else that is depleted. You already have higher no3 than I do and my corals are not pale. Maybe higher no3 will mask a different issue. Who can say without trying?

he may (ok IS) limiting carbon in the form of co2 to the display, because of the fuge running.

 

[najer]

I am so tempted to get my nitrates and phos tested again now (not), great input everyone, I designed my current tank around maximum natural nutrient export, I run a refugium.
I watch my tank and intervene when I really need to, when the corals tell me.
I did do a 5% waterchange last April, might try a 10% water change this year!

 

[DaveRaz]

68 fish! wow! Incredible!

 

[Robthorn]

58. ;-)
I have 18 green Chromis if that counts for anything. Lol All over a year old. I have to get a decent cell phone pic once in a while to count them.

 

[Thales]

. So I pulled my Ca reactor, switched to Triton Dosing (specifically because it was supposed to have added TE in their mix) and ALL my SPS problem stopped. That was the only change I made.

Hi ya Joe! Might the CaRx be the point problematic point for your system? Was it doing something goofy? It might be interesting to put it back on just to see if things go south again. </runs away>

 

[Robthorn]

Haha Thales, good idea to run away. When things are working you surely don't want to try something you think failed. Good try though.
I am a doser at the moment. 300ml's a day today and climbing crazy fast may change my mind.