Sps high nutrients myth?

[JBNY]

Hi ya Joe! Might the CaRx be the point problematic point for your system? Was it doing something goofy? It might be interesting to put it back on just to see if things go south again. </runs away>

Hi ya Rich, So I had this exact same discussion with Boomer this summer at Sanjay's house. So while yes it is possible that it is the CaRx, In the year prior I did take apart the reactor twice and cleaned out the reactor and changed the media to new media just to try and eliminate a reactor problem when I was trying to get the tank on track. So while I do not think that the reactor played a part in causing the problem, at this point I am not willing to change back just to see if everything dies.

 

[FarmerTy]

I used to think that, until I had problems with my tank that would be considered "old tank syndrome", for me it turned out to not have anything to do with phosphates, it was trace elements.

I appreciate the feedback on that. It's always nice to hear different experiences on that issue.

So while I am pretty sure it was trace elements, it is only my best guess. I have an RC thread that I documented everything when trying to get the tank back on track, I kept very good maintenance records records of my tank. For over a year I had both N and P rock solid, N at 5ppm and P at 0.02 and I was still struggling to keep SPS. With no real apparent pattern acros would get burnt tips, bleach, RTN. Growth was almost nonexistent for acros in the tank for even as long as a year. I did finally start to see a pattern that everything would perk up and do better after a series of water changes (anywhere from 100 gallons to 400 gallons worth) but would steadily decline after that. Multiple Triton ICP tests showed nothing out of the ordinary. So after speaking to A LOT of people, it was suggested that maybe the tank was consuming trace elements that were needed by the acros. I played with some Brightwell Trace element solution and had some success for a while but ultimately started to have the exact same SPS issues. So I pulled my Ca reactor, switched to Triton Dosing (specifically because it was supposed to have added TE in their mix) and ALL my SPS problem stopped. That was the only change I made.

I have since looked into it more and feel that it was zinc and manganese that were deficient. I now dose my own mixture of Zinc, Manganese and Iodine in addition to dosing.

For the fish, yeah when I redid my tank years ago I specifically wanted to have lots of small fish rather than just a few large ones. Visually it is really cool, people come over and can look at the tank and keep seeing new things that they missed earlier as there are so many fish hiding in the rocks.

Thanks for the summary JBNY. I'll have to look into zinc, Manganese, and iodine and keep an eye on those. I saw your dosing thread on Manganese so will have to peruse it. I've only been water change free for 3 years so not sure if these levels have depleted enough to cause issue yet. I do send in an annual sample to Triton to monitor trends so I'll have to look back at them.

 

[Thales]

Do you have any closer shots of your acros in particular? Or top-down shots? I'm curious of the types you are keeping (I see some stags) and their coloration in closer detail.

Some iphone shots with a look down (pretty much all grown from frags in the last twoish years):

 

[Thales]

Hi ya Rich, So I had this exact same discussion with Boomer this summer at Sanjay's house. So while yes it is possible that it is the CaRx, In the year prior I did take apart the reactor twice and cleaned out the reactor and changed the media to new media just to try and eliminate a reactor problem when I was trying to get the tank on track. So while I do not think that the reactor played a part in causing the problem, at this point I am not willing to change back just to see if everything dies.

Yeah - totally joking about putting it back on. What about the recirc pump? Any goofyness in there?

PS - I love having discussions about your tank all over the internet.

 

[FarmerTy]

Some iphone shots with a look down (pretty much all grown from frags in the last twoish years):

Wow! The acros look great!

Sorry if I missed it but what are your current nutrient levels?

 

[Thales]

Wow! The acros look great!

Sorry if I missed it but what are your current nutrient levels?

Thanks! I really have to find time to take those kinds of shots with the big camera!

Here is the full AWT work up.
I am not sure if they show results in NO3 or NO3-N. It is thought that they use Hach equipment and give results in NO3-N, so if we multiply that result by 4.42 we get NO3 of 110.5
Phosphate 1.46 (it's down a bit), it was 3 at one point.


01-17-2017 Ammonia (NH3-4) Good 0 0.000 - 0.050 mg/L
01-17-2017 Nitrite (NO2) Good 0.012 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L
01-17-2017 Phosphate (PO4) High 1.46 0.000 - 0.250 mg/L
01-17-2017 Nitrate (NO3) High 32 0.000 - 25.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Silica (Sio2-3) High 0.6 0.000 - 0.500 mg/L
01-17-2017 Potassium (K) Good 396 350.000 - 450.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Ionic Calcium (Ca) Good 166 100.000 - 400.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Boron (B) NA NA 3.000 - 6.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Molybdenum (Mo) Good 0.3 0.000 - 0.300 mg/L
01-17-2017 Strontium (Sr) Good 7 5.000 - 12.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Magnesium (Mg) Good 1300 1100.000 - 1400.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Iodine (I) Good 0.05 0.030 - 0.090 mg/L
01-17-2017 Copper (Cu) Good 0.03 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L
01-17-2017 Alkalinity (meq/L) Good 2.7 2.500 - 5.000 meq/L
01-17-2017 Total Calcium (Ca) Good 430 350.000 - 450.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Iron (Fe) NA NA 0.000 - 0.010 mg/L

 

[FarmerTy]

Thanks! I really have to find time to take those kinds of shots with the big camera!

Here is the full AWT work up.
I am not sure if they show results in NO3 or NO3-N. It is thought that they use Hach equipment and give results in NO3-N, so if we multiply that result by 4.42 we get NO3 of 110.5
Phosphate 1.46 (it's down a bit), it was 3 at one point.


01-17-2017 Ammonia (NH3-4) Good 0 0.000 - 0.050 mg/L
01-17-2017 Nitrite (NO2) Good 0.012 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L
01-17-2017 Phosphate (PO4) High 1.46 0.000 - 0.250 mg/L
01-17-2017 Nitrate (NO3) High 32 0.000 - 25.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Silica (Sio2-3) High 0.6 0.000 - 0.500 mg/L
01-17-2017 Potassium (K) Good 396 350.000 - 450.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Ionic Calcium (Ca) Good 166 100.000 - 400.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Boron (B) NA NA 3.000 - 6.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Molybdenum (Mo) Good 0.3 0.000 - 0.300 mg/L
01-17-2017 Strontium (Sr) Good 7 5.000 - 12.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Magnesium (Mg) Good 1300 1100.000 - 1400.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Iodine (I) Good 0.05 0.030 - 0.090 mg/L
01-17-2017 Copper (Cu) Good 0.03 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L
01-17-2017 Alkalinity (meq/L) Good 2.7 2.500 - 5.000 meq/L
01-17-2017 Total Calcium (Ca) Good 430 350.000 - 450.000 mg/L
01-17-2017 Iron (Fe) NA NA 0.000 - 0.010 mg/L

Thanks for sharing!

 

[JBNY]

Yeah - totally joking about putting it back on. What about the recirc pump? Any goofyness in there?

PS - I love having discussions about your tank all over the internet.

Recirculating pump got replaced years ago. The little giant was replaced with a pan world pump. But it has been working without issues for years and years at this point. Nothing weird there that I could tell.

Ha! we can talk about my tank anywhere, it's fine with me.

 

[fragit]

Hope this thread has not died already so much insight from everyone. Keep the anecdotes coming!!! I'm learning a ton.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Hope this thread has not died already so much insight from everyone. Keep the anecdotes coming!!! I'm learning a ton.

Were still having coffee out here, and trying to figure out why water keeps falling from the sky.

 

[fragit]

What ever.... East Coast Rules!!!

 

[JBNY]

Higher nutrient levels alleviates you from a lot of other chores as well. Acros can get pretty much all the nutrition they need from nitrogen, so there is no need to feed them. So other than dosing, or using a CA reactor, and do a few water changes or add trace elements if not doing water changes, just keep N at 5 ppm or higher you don't really need to add anything else.

 

[LakeCityReefs]

Here's my take on nutrients and coral health;
I started my current tank about 11 months ago. I added all types of coral in months 2-5. I particularly like SPS sticks and have had moderate success in past tanks.
I noticed that the SPS had great colors when I added them but about a month later they would begin to pale.
In the past I believed in keeping N03 P04 as low as possible. After reading some threads here on R2R I decided to start dosing Seachem Flourish to increase nitrates to 5 ppm. Unfortunately I was using an API test that wasn't registering N03 after 1 week of dosing a capful daily. I stopped dosing until my Salifert test arrived. My first test with Salifert revealed over 100 ppm N03.
Over the next few weeks I performed several water changes to reduce N03 to 50 ppm. My levels seemed to stay around 25 ppm for about 1 month and my corals were looking better.

I then went 4 months without a water change or testing N03. I tested N03 2 weeks ago and got a near 0 reading. I finally performed a 20% WC and have started dosing 1 cupful of Flourish weekly again. He have never had any visible amounts of algae on my rock. I clean a dusting of algae from my glass every 2-3 days. I have 2 snails and 4 hermits.

My system is 50 gallons with a moderate to high bioload. I use and replace about 1/2 cup carbon & 1/4 cup Phosguard monthly. I remove half of my calurpa monthly. I empty my skimmer cup 1 time a week.

Not saying my situation is perfect. I just wanted to share my experience in hopes that others won't be afraid of letting their corals have some dirty water to feed on

 

[evmibo]

@JBNY

Out of curiousity what CaRx media were you using, and what did you switch to before you stopped using the CaRx all together? I ask because TLF Reborn has trace elements, and I wonder if that wasn't enough for your system.

 

[Robthorn]

We might also consider maturity of the tanks we are talking about here as well. Some new tanks are great from the beginning but most tanks need to mature. I don't even know what that means but there becomes a time well beyond 1 year where I feel my tank is starting to mature and I am less afraid to spend more than $20 on a coral. Getting a nice new coral and having it go pale is no fun. I think a lot of the pale corals comes from immature tanks for a lack of better wording.
My tank is at the point now coming up on 2.5 years I think where I buy a new coral and the color either doesn't change at all or it just starts to get better looking. It could happen to any coral but as long as I don't have a bad tube of glue again I don't fear corals rtn or stn'ing.

 

[gus6464]

Maturity is this big placebo that people like to use to blame for something going wrong. A tank doesnt go from a mess to stable overnight just because it hits a certain age. Your parameters are either in check and kept stable from day one or they are not. Maturity has to do with the reefer and not the tank itself. If someone knows how to setup a tank and get their parameters dialed down with whatever equipment they have they can put in whatever in tank and have it thrive. Doesn't matter if tank is 3 weeks or 1 year old.

 

[FarmerTy]

Maturity is this big placebo that people like to use to blame for something going wrong. A tank doesnt go from a mess to stable overnight just because it hits a certain age. Your parameters are either in check and kept stable from day one or they are not. Maturity has to do with the reefer and not the tank itself. If someone knows how to setup a tank and get their parameters dialed down with whatever equipment they have they can put in whatever in tank and have it thrive. Doesn't matter if tank is 3 weeks or 1 year old.

I tend to disagree with this statement. I've found over the years that at least for keeping SPS, a certain level of stability is achieved after a year and from that point any additions to the tank have no problems surviving. There's a lot of nutrient balance issues and swings in different types of bacterial populations at play that aren't accounted for during the first year. This is with stable measurable parameters the entire time during the first year, no swings of that sort that often plague new hobbyists.

 

[Robthorn]

Okee dokeeee

 

[gus6464]

I tend to disagree with this statement. I've found over the years that at least for keeping SPS, a certain level of stability is achieved after a year and from that point any additions to the tank have no problems surviving. There's a lot of nutrient balance issues and swings in different types of bacterial populations at play that aren't accounted for during the first year. This is with stable measurable parameters the entire time during the first year, no swings of that sort that often plague new hobbyists.

Nutrient balance is achieved through husbandry and not some magical effect that happens over time. A high nutrient tank is still a high nutrient tank 6 months later if the owner keeps doing the same thing. Same thing with a lack of nutrients. A tank isn't going to change all of a sudden unless the reefkeeper does something. Even the little things such as feeding less or more is done by the user so there is always a cause and effect. A tank doesnt become magically stable after a year by the reefkeeper not doing anything.

 

[FarmerTy]

Nutrient balance is achieved through husbandry and not some magical effect that happens over time. A high nutrient tank is still a high nutrient tank 6 months later if the owner keeps doing the same thing. Same thing with a lack of nutrients. A tank isn't going to change all of a sudden unless the reefkeeper does something. Even the little things such as feeding less or more is done by the user so there is always a cause and effect. A tank doesnt become magically stable after a year by the reefkeeper not doing anything.

I absolutely agree with that statement, but it speaks nothing to bacterial populations and the swings in one type versus another. There is a virtual microbial war going on in our tanks in the first year which IMO has a direct effect on the health of SPS in particular. Just my opinion, I don't expect others to have to bend to agree to it.