SPS Polyp Disease

[vitaliyphoto]

I would disagree with the spreading theory because myself and a bunch of other guys that I spoke to over years about this all had their corals recover when placing in a separate system. If it spread then the other tanks would become infected. There is a catalyst in system. Heck, some guys even had success by changing lighting. Some led can be focused and irritating.

I think you guys misunderstood me. What I am trying to say is over time more and more and more corals started having this thing. I understand that it needs favorable conditions in the tank to make coral succeptible but some corals get it and some don’t, I am not sure of you got to the point in disease progression where most acropora have it like is happening to me. Almost every coral has it now. I totally agree with the catalyst, it needs something to outcompete healthy bacteria/biome/coral defenses. We can almost conclude this is caused by an organism and not the chemical, this organism needs something in the water or needs corals to be stressed due to chemistry or lighting etc. I highly, very highly doubt that newly introduced frags inherently come with this pathogen in them, I believe it comes from other frags/colonies that are already heavily exhibiting symptoms. This is why I believe it spreads selectively to other vulnerable corals.

 

[Jposch]

Anyone with the blistering or hard lumpy growths rule out stray voltage?
I've had leaky pumps for a long time before the issues cropped up, so I'm not terribly convinced it's a factor.

 

[Troylee]

Anyone with the blistering or hard lumpy growths rule out stray voltage?
I've had leaky pumps for a long time before the issues cropped up, so I'm not terribly convinced it's a factor.

I’ve never been zapped in my tank.. my saltwater mixing station is a different story, haha! One little cut on your hand will let you know real quick!

 

[vitaliyphoto]

Final update! Disease fully conquered in my tank!!! Growth restored completely and polyps look amazing.

Following changes were made:
1. Almost complete switch from ReefLED to t5 lighting. I believe this is the one that did it too. Someone mentioned that they believe it’s LEDs and I know @Troylee mentioned he had it with metal halides but my initial theory holds water, corals were to weak to fight off pathogen. LED lights were stressful on coral tissues with heavy shading and strong/unnatural shimmer. Contrast between lit areas and unlit areas was very stark. Some corals had fine lines between brown and colorful tissues. Quality fixtures like Radions are softer on the corals with better coverage and less shading. kessil-style lights give great shimmer but at the expense of strong shading. 2x coral plus and 2x blue plus bulb combo with leds running as supplements really turned the boat around I feel.

2. Super large 95% water change over a month ago

3. Carbon pre-filter on skimmer plumbed to outdoor air.

4. Complete cleaning and sterilization of top-off container

5. Switch from All for reef to bionic

6. NO carbon dosing anymore.

7. Switch from hikari to PE mysis

Due to the quantity of changes it’s hard to pinpoint what really did it but I confirm this can be conquered if you have the will and patience.

Before:

After:

 

[Pod_01]

Interesting, but I suspect it is something other than LED vs t5. It may contribute as in LED potentially have more energy.

I had this odd growth for about 1.5 years.
Odd growth pattern:

Now:

Another coral odd growth pattern:

New shoots now:

I still use the same LED.

One of the things I changed was trace elements. What I noticed is that when I had deformation growing my Fe/iron was detectable by ICP.

That was odd because Fe should precipitate quite fast.

When corals are growing ok Fe is dosed but ICP states not detectable. The new trace mix adds lot less Fe.
I think part of this is trace element related, perhaps too much of some trace elements leads to coral obesity…
Trace element are in food and we may be adding too much.

Just my thoughts.

 

[vitaliyphoto]

Interesting, but I suspect it is something other than LED vs t5. It may contribute as in LED potentially have more energy.

I had this odd growth for about 1.5 years.
Odd growth pattern:

Now:

Another coral odd growth pattern:

New shoots now:

I still use the same LED.

One of the things I changed was trace elements. What I noticed is that when I had deformation growing my Fe/iron was detectable by ICP.

That was odd because Fe should precipitate quite fast.

When corals are growing ok Fe is dosed but ICP states not detectable. The new trace mix adds lot less Fe.
I think part of this is trace element related, perhaps too much of some trace elements leads to coral obesity…
Trace element are in food and we may be adding too much.

Just my thoughts.

Still feel it’s a 1000 contributing factors leading to a coral unable to fight off one (or a few) simple organism. And once the conditions stabilize corals naturally fight it off. This is also confirmed by everyone having different issues corrected resulting in resolution of symptoms. I could be wrong. My plan of action was largely guided by ChatGPt as it confirmed my hypothesis that light induced stress could be preventing coral’s ability to fight off the disease. The last step was reducing LED intensity significantly and replacing it with gentler and better spectrum t5 lighting.

 

[Pod_01]

Still feel it’s a 1000 contributing factors leading to a coral unable to fight off one (or a few) simple organism. And once the conditions stabilize corals naturally fight it off. This is also confirmed by everyone having different issues corrected resulting in resolution of symptoms. I could be wrong. My plan of action was largely guided by ChatGPt as it confirmed my hypothesis that light induced stress could be preventing coral’s ability to fight off the disease. The last step was reducing LED intensity significantly and replacing it with gentler and better spectrum t5 lighting.

I cannot comment on ChatGPT accuracy with respect to coral husbandry but from my experience it can hallucinate a lot. With enough guidance I can make it see things my way…

Too much light can create stress in plants so corals may react the same way. I know for a fact too much light can kill corals , but that should be no surprise. Reducing the LED intensity or spectrum probably would have resulted in the same effect as changing to t5. I am not following how t5 are gentler but perhaps there is study that show how this gentler light works. From my experience sun in tropical region is anything but gentle on my skin, LED are nowhere close to that intensity.

Since I didn’t change my lights and things improved and I am sure the LED didn’t become gentler there is a possibility the cause is something else.

For example these three items have significant impact on your trace elements:

2. Super large 95% water change over a month ago

5. Switch from All for reef to bionic

7. Switch from hikari to PE mysis

Item 2 created brand new baseline for trace elements.
With item 5 you actually removed trace element supplement. Esv bionic does not supplement trace elements. Items 7 can drastically change what traces are going into your system.

All of these are actually quite disruptive changes and line up with my observation.
Something with trace elements, too much of them, wrong mix/ratio, wrong type is contributing to this or causing it.
Some of these may also interact with phosphate supply…
Again just my opinion and interpretation of the information provided.

The other observation I made is that when corals start to have this deformed growth, it is almost as if the coral decided to encrust. The polyps look like the ones found in the encrusted portion of the coral. Again just my observation, I been looking at these for almost 2 years.

Good luck, hopefully things keep improving for you.

 

[justy]

I cannot comment on ChatGPT accuracy with respect to coral husbandry but from my experience it can hallucinate a lot. With enough guidance I can make it see things my way…

Too much light can create stress in plants so corals may react the same way. I know for a fact too much light can kill corals , but that should be no surprise. Reducing the LED intensity or spectrum probably would have resulted in the same effect as changing to t5. I am not following how t5 are gentler but perhaps there is study that show how this gentler light works. From my experience sun in tropical region is anything but gentle on my skin, LED are nowhere close to that intensity.

Since I didn’t change my lights and things improved and I am sure the LED didn’t become gentler there is a possibility the cause is something else.

For example these three items have significant impact on your trace elements:



Item 2 created brand new baseline for trace elements.
With item 5 you actually removed trace element supplement. Esv bionic does not supplement trace elements. Items 7 can drastically change what traces are going into your system.

All of these are actually quite disruptive changes and line up with my observation.
Something with trace elements, too much of them, wrong mix/ratio, wrong type is contributing to this or causing it.
Some of these may also interact with phosphate supply…
Again just my opinion and interpretation of the information provided.

The other observation I made is that when corals start to have this deformed growth, it is almost as if the coral decided to encrust. The polyps look like the ones found in the encrusted portion of the coral. Again just my observation, I been looking at these for almost 2 years.

Good luck, hopefully things keep improving for you.

Yes agreed on the encrusting part, this is what I have observed.

 

[vitaliyphoto]

I cannot comment on ChatGPT accuracy with respect to coral husbandry but from my experience it can hallucinate a lot. With enough guidance I can make it see things my way…

Too much light can create stress in plants so corals may react the same way. I know for a fact too much light can kill corals , but that should be no surprise. Reducing the LED intensity or spectrum probably would have resulted in the same effect as changing to t5. I am not following how t5 are gentler but perhaps there is study that show how this gentler light works. From my experience sun in tropical region is anything but gentle on my skin, LED are nowhere close to that intensity.

Since I didn’t change my lights and things improved and I am sure the LED didn’t become gentler there is a possibility the cause is something else.

For example these three items have significant impact on your trace elements:



Item 2 created brand new baseline for trace elements.
With item 5 you actually removed trace element supplement. Esv bionic does not supplement trace elements. Items 7 can drastically change what traces are going into your system.

All of these are actually quite disruptive changes and line up with my observation.
Something with trace elements, too much of them, wrong mix/ratio, wrong type is contributing to this or causing it.
Some of these may also interact with phosphate supply…
Again just my opinion and interpretation of the information provided.

The other observation I made is that when corals start to have this deformed growth, it is almost as if the coral decided to encrust. The polyps look like the ones found in the encrusted portion of the coral. Again just my observation, I been looking at these for almost 2 years.

Good luck, hopefully things keep improving for you.

I also confirm that tulip-polyps are primarily on encrusting growth or oldest branches of the coral. Fresh growth is either least affected or not affected at all.

Like I said, any of these could have done it. If you are desperate like I was you can try to replicate my approach and see if things are fixed. All I can say is that the issue persisted for a year prior to my special “treatment”

 

[vitaliyphoto]

I cannot comment on ChatGPT accuracy with respect to coral husbandry but from my experience it can hallucinate a lot. With enough guidance I can make it see things my way…

Too much light can create stress in plants so corals may react the same way. I know for a fact too much light can kill corals , but that should be no surprise. Reducing the LED intensity or spectrum probably would have resulted in the same effect as changing to t5. I am not following how t5 are gentler but perhaps there is study that show how this gentler light works. From my experience sun in tropical region is anything but gentle on my skin, LED are nowhere close to that intensity.

Since I didn’t change my lights and things improved and I am sure the LED didn’t become gentler there is a possibility the cause is something else.

For example these three items have significant impact on your trace elements:



Item 2 created brand new baseline for trace elements.
With item 5 you actually removed trace element supplement. Esv bionic does not supplement trace elements. Items 7 can drastically change what traces are going into your system.

All of these are actually quite disruptive changes and line up with my observation.
Something with trace elements, too much of them, wrong mix/ratio, wrong type is contributing to this or causing it.
Some of these may also interact with phosphate supply…
Again just my opinion and interpretation of the information provided.

The other observation I made is that when corals start to have this deformed growth, it is almost as if the coral decided to encrust. The polyps look like the ones found in the encrusted portion of the coral. Again just my observation, I been looking at these for almost 2 years.

Good luck, hopefully things keep improving for you.

Another point, and I don’t want to come across as argumentative or harsh, but I don’t know how long you’ve been in the hobby since it shows you became member in 2022 . As a person that had a reef tank since 2008 and a person that dedicated 17 years of my life to studying shadows (photographer) I can absolutely tell you with 100% certainty that t5 lighting (or any lighting that shines through a soft box such as sky) is much gentler with much softer transitions between light and shadows than LED. BRS did series on lighting and they themselves said that the blue sky illuminates the corals stronger than harsher light source (sun):



Some LED fixtures such as Philips fixtures, Neptune sky lights as well as Orphek fixtures or AI blades emulated t5 coverage but most of everything else won’t be as soft as t5s.

 

[anthonymckay]

Glad to see you finally beat it! I still have LED lights on mine and made zero changes to their intensity or scheduling (kessils and ReefBrite LED bars), and everything has recovered magnificently in my tank after dealing with this same issue for nearly a year. The only changes I made were ridding my system of copper (still not sure where it came from), and correcting my alkalinity, and in generally just keeping everything as stable as possible. Once I did those two things everything immediately started to recover and grow. I think the LED lights are a red herring.

 

[vitaliyphoto]

Glad to see you finally beat it! I still have LED lights on mine and made zero changes to their intensity or scheduling (kessils and ReefBrite LED bars), and everything has recovered magnificently in my tank after dealing with this same issue for nearly a year. The only changes I made were ridding my system of copper (still not sure where it came from), and correcting my alkalinity, and in generally just keeping everything as stable as possible. Once I did those two things everything immediately started to recover and grow. I think the LED lights are a red herring.

Not arguing that point but am saying that incorrect intensity from this type of light source will stress the coral to the point of not being able to recover. Pretty sure if I had twice the intensity to begin with but no tulip polyps and hyperplasia corals would be in amazing shape as well since they can take a lot of light.

Point I keep trying to convey is:
1. Find out what is stressing the coral
2. Correct it and watch the coral’s immune system and vitality fight this off.

 

[Pod_01]

Another point, and I don’t want to come across as argumentative or harsh, but I don’t know how long you’ve been in the hobby since it shows you became member in 2022 . As a person that had a reef tank since 2008 and a person that dedicated 17 years of my life to studying shadows (photographer) I can absolutely tell you with 100% certainty that t5 lighting (or any lighting that shines through a soft box such as sky) is much gentler with much softer transitions between light and shadows than LED. BRS did series on lighting and they themselves said that the blue sky illuminates the corals stronger than harsher light source (sun):



Some LED fixtures such as Philips fixtures, Neptune sky lights as well as Orphek fixtures or AI blades emulated t5 coverage but most of everything else won’t be as soft as t5s.

Interesting topic on lights, from photography I can understand the desire to have proper light, shadows etc… my wife is hobby photographer.

Corals are exposed to sunlight that range from harsh to I guess soft 6pm sunlight etc…
I suspect corals just like many plants probably don’t really care for the harshness, the spectrum can be a problem. I am not a fan of windex effects and I don’t use all blues.

Now I do believe LED are providing lot more power and I been told by long time reefer to keep them at 50/60%. I have no science data but he said they are lot stronger when compared to t5 or halides.

Also the same reefer suggested that the issue I observed may be trace element related. I showed him what I had, what I changed and the improvement. After seeing the pictures he said that he observed something similar when experimenting with Fe. He suspects it is some combination of iron and phosphate in the acro skeleton that is contributing to this.

Cheers,

 

[vitaliyphoto]

Interesting topic on lights, from photography I can understand the desire to have proper light, shadows etc… my wife is hobby photographer.

Corals are exposed to sunlight that range from harsh to I guess soft 6pm sunlight etc…
I suspect corals just like many plants probably don’t really care for the harshness, the spectrum can be a problem. I am not a fan of windex effects and I don’t use all blues.

Now I do believe LED are providing lot more power and I been told by long time reefer to keep them at 50/60%. I have no science data but he said they are lot stronger when compared to t5 or halides.

Also the same reefer suggested that the issue I observed may be trace element related. I showed him what I had, what I changed and the improvement. After seeing the pictures he said that he observed something similar when experimenting with Fe. He suspects it is some combination of iron and phosphate in the acro skeleton that is contributing to this.

Cheers,

Interesting…

I can see how trace elements and Fe can stress corals if they are to high or low. The interesting take away from that video is what we don’t realize, majority of corals only have a few hours a day of harsh light and vast majority of time diffuse blue light that passes through the sky. So in a sense corals are lit by t5 most of the day and the metal halide/led spotlight comes on for a few hours. Most of the corals only have so much exposure to direct light due to being on lower shelves of the reef structure.

Also about the shimmer of LEDs, from BRS video that shimmer is nothing like that of the sun. Sun produces slowly passing large caustic lines whereas our spotlight LEDs create something like flicker.

I too can’t stand windex tanks and don’t comprehend how so many people are into this blue heavy mess. I think reef tank should be a balance of colors, still blue heavy but more like classic Radium bulb than like someone filled the tank with blue dye.

In all I am happy I went to what really worked so well and am still able to enjoy my tank with the LED shimmer in the evening.