Still battling Phosphates…

[mcarroll]

Its 95% sps. Im getting less coloration and polyp extension. Since its been elevated. Just i get decent growth on some and others are stagnant.

I would wager there are other factors that account for those changes.

How has this tank done at growing out SPS frags so far? Any growth?

How big is the tank and what are you using for flow?

Was there a major change in the foods you're putting in the tank? Have you always used automatic feeders?

There's probably more food waste than there would be if you were feeding manually, but if your cleanup crew is comprehensive then that shouldn't show up too badly in your dissolved nutrient levels.

I wonder if there is significantly more wastage than you think there is or if there is a major upgrade to your cleanup crew that might help?

I also suspect flow might be weak. Flow is responsible for keeping food aloft while fish and corals eat it up.

Without adequate flow, it settles rapidly into the rock work and into the sand and into the filtration.... none of which is helpful.

Further, with the ultrasoft flow of pumps these days it's very very difficult to have too much flow… And surprisingly easy to have two little flow even if you have a lot of GPH. I would very carefully consider the flow situation in your tank and upgrade it in every way that seems practical.

 

[Koty]

I use very aggressive GFO namely about 800 ml of GFO in TLF reactor and a 300-600 l/h. IME PO4 never gets below 0.2-0.1. Another issue is that the TLF reactor get clogged very quickly and I reverse the flow through it. Just tested now after a couple of days of running it in reverse and it’s 0.15 mg/ml
Below is a graph of running it -getting clogged- reversing the flow. Tank is with high bioload 110g probably overfed (most fish are young fwiw)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If not, you’re in a forever battle always dosing LC, using GFO, or running more gear like turf scrubbers. Personally I’d rather feed less over buying, maintaining, and running chemicals and more equipment over time.

Many people use nutrient export forever, whether that is by ats, growing macroalgae, GFO, lanthanum, etc.

 

[BryanM]

I probably would not feed less unless the fish don't eat everything in 1-2 min.... thats more of the tell that you may be overfeeding.

Lots of people seem to believe that frozen foods should be thawed and rinsed to remove phosphates.

 

[jeremie]

Its 95% sps. Im getting less coloration and polyp extension. Since its been elevated. Just i get decent growth on some and others are stagnant.

I’ve experimentally maintained various phosphate levels in several SPS dominated tanks for a few months by dosing phosphate directly, but I never saw any noticeable difference between 0.1 ppm and 0.3 ppm. Some Acropora did seem to show better coloration when the level was raised from below 0.05 ppm to 0.1 ppm. I currently aim for 0.1~0.2 ppm to leave some room before it bottoms out.

One thing many people often ignore is that feeding also brings in a lot more than just phosphate, and most phosphate removal methods also remove things other than phosphate. So when someone observes an effect after raising phosphate through feeding or lowering phosphate with methods such as GFO, the actual cause might not have much to do with phosphate itself.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@slythy whats your no3 range?

 

[slythy]

I would wager there are other factors that account for those changes.

How has this tank done at growing out SPS frags so far? Any growth?

How big is the tank and what are you using for flow?

Was there a major change in the foods you're putting in the tank? Have you always used automatic feeders?

There's probably more food waste than there would be if you were feeding manually, but if your cleanup crew is comprehensive then that shouldn't show up too badly in your dissolved nutrient levels.

I wonder if there is significantly more wastage than you think there is or if there is a major upgrade to your cleanup crew that might help?

I also suspect flow might be weak. Flow is responsible for keeping food aloft while fish and corals eat it up.

Without adequate flow, it settles rapidly into the rock work and into the sand and into the filtration.... none of which is helpful.

Further, with the ultrasoft flow of pumps these days it's very very difficult to have too much flow… And surprisingly easy to have two little flow even if you have a lot of GPH. I would very carefully consider the flow situation in your tank and upgrade it in every way that seems practical.

SPS growth has been good, I have huge colonies for some of them . I just feel like it could be better as I can easily keep nitrates between 15-20 without doing anything. So if i can keep phos lower I would be happy.

main tank is 180g tank
6 mp40s
frag tank is 70g
4 mp10s
sump normally holds about 40g at regular level. flow through the sump is 700gph.

I am not hurting for flow.

the thing that hosed me is that I didnt realize that my phosphates were close to 3.0 in my 70g when i let it go after a crash and just kept it fish only while the 180 was being done. so it was just soaked into the full system when I combined the two tanks. I didnt think about the rock being a lasting issue when I did it.....

Food wise I just buy every single pellet I can find and mix them into a big container and then fill up the auto feeders. which 2 lasts around 2 months probably? the frozen fishfood feeder is new but need to keep it going to keep my copperband eating.

everythings automated as I travel a lot for work.

 

[slythy]

@slythy whats your no3 range?

always sits at 15-20.. just depends on how long I keep my fuge on/ if I just emptied the macro or not.... but pretty steady.

 

[mcarroll]

SPS growth has been good, I have huge colonies for some of them . I just feel like it could be better as I can easily keep nitrates between 15-20 without doing anything. So if i can keep phos lower I would be happy.

There really is no great reason to have P lower UNLESS it's from corals using it up! :)

You mentioned good growth, which is excellent but not without its costs...will point to this later.

main tank is 180g tank
6 mp40s
frag tank is 70g
4 mp10s
sump normally holds about 40g at regular level. flow through the sump is 700gph.

I am not hurting for flow.

Well...from the numbers (both $ and GPH) you'd think so, but trust me that it's at least worth an in-tank review.

I assume the frag and display are connected since you mentioned them together.

700gph is about (700/250=) 2.8X turnover...seems about right. 2x-4X is the usual recomendation, but more or less is also OK.

I'll grant you that 18,000 GPH from those six MP40's sounds like a lot of flow.

But this is the case I was describing where ultra-soft flow kinda "spoils" the GPH number....it's a lot of GPH, but it's low velocity (weak), so it *takes more flow (GPH)* to do the job.

There are (at least) three factors you should look at IMO.

* One is that MP40's are strong out to about 24" from the pump, but quite weak past that. I see at least one or two on the back wall of your tank....not sure about the rest. Back wall is often good, but make sure they all have unobstructed access to the bulk tank water in front of them. Any obstruction within that 24" cone in front of the pump is a flow killer.

* Two is that you are probably running a program on the mp40's vs running them at 100% all the time. So on average that 18k GPH is probably more like 10,000 GPH....sometimes more, sometimes a lot less. During the down-cycle this can leave some zones of your tank starving for flow.

* Number three is the great growth you've had with your corals so far. Corals will do a great job of blocking up their own flow as they grow out....so it's common for an SPS tank (branchy corals do this in particular) to become a "victim of its own success" when corals grow out enough to dampen and slow the overall flow in the tank. Once flow slows to below a certain velocity, the flow can't move particles or penetrate the corals boundary layer properly anymore.

At minimum a re-arrange of the tank's flow is probably called for, but it's possible that (even more) pumps will have to be added depending on your success with rearranging the flow you have.

IMO it looks like there's still lots of open space in your tank, so you "should" be able to reestablish strong flow if you had it before. But MP40's (and probably other similar pumps) do not do well in really crowded tanks in my experience...which corresponds with their ultra-soft flow being low-speed even coming straight from the pump. It has no "oomph" to do work if the flow encounters *any* obstacle.

There are still some pumps on the market that generate stronger flow (not referring to GPH but to velocity) if you want to add something different or replace what you have.

the thing that hosed me is that I didnt realize that my phosphates were close to 3.0 in my 70g when i let it go after a crash and just kept it fish only while the 180 was being done. so it was just soaked into the full system when I combined the two tanks. I didnt think about the rock being a lasting issue when I did it.....

I'm not sure what you mean by hosed?

The amount of N and P coming into the tank with every feeding absolutely dwarfs the amount that would have been added to the 180 with the 70 gallon "from the rocks" and whatever else....IMO the joining might not really be that relevant.

Folks get freaked out about phosphates and nutrients in general, but phosphates literally hurt nothing as far as corals are concerned. P is a harmless nutrient. (The only harm to corals comes when you find P absent or near-zero.)

Even high nitrates (N), which are much more concerning in terms of potential side effects for corals than P, are unconcerning if they are relatively in balance with P and other nutrients.

That said, when the N&P levels are likely being driven by wasted food, there's usually a desire to eliminate that waste for the long term good of the tank. More on this...

Food wise I just buy every single pellet I can find and mix them into a big container and then fill up the auto feeders. which 2 lasts around 2 months probably? the frozen fishfood feeder is new but need to keep it going to keep my copperband eating.

everythings automated as I travel a lot for work.

That's a worthy method since you're out of town a lot, but also probably very sloppy since there's no way for you to really mind the fish and how they are eating.

For example, how can automation feed no more than they'll eat in a minute or two....or before the food disappears into the rocks, whichever happens first....and repeat that cycle until they're full?

Essentially impossible.

IMO you need flow that is not only OK for your corals, but flow that is *impeccable* to pull that off without excess wasted food breaking down in the system.

A strong protein skimmer would also be highly recommended if you aren't already running one.

I hardly recommend mechanical filtration for reef tanks, but this is a case where it could be well-warranted....something like a protein skimmer or roller-felt (or both) that actually pulls the waste *out of the tank* vs trapping it in a filter element *in the tank* is what I'd use. IMO first go big on the skimmer (if you haven't already) and if that still doesn't moderate things properly/to your liking after a month or so, then add a roller (or similar).

 

[JWsticks]

What type of lighting are you using for the fuge? A stronger light my help here. I over stock and po4 needs to be exported by dosing no3 (maintain 2.5ppm) and running a 75w led for 16h to maintain 0.06ppm PO4. When I empty my fuge, I can easily fill a 5 gallon bucket with red pom pom algae.