strange blemishes on Niger trigger

[BilboB]

Got a Niger trigger ~10 days ago to replace the one that died. Put it in my fish + inverts tank, and now I see strange blemishes on it. All the other fish look fine. Any ideas? Flukes?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Got a Niger trigger ~10 days ago to replace the one that died. Put it in my fish + inverts tank, and now I see strange blemishes on it. All the other fish look fine. Any ideas? Flukes?

Video is short and I suspect , either a skin irritation or even result of flukes. Is fish eating and breathing normal? If so, likely skin irritation. If flukes, you will see itching, scratching, heavy breathing, cloudy eyes and lethargic behavior

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Got a Niger trigger ~10 days ago to replace the one that died. Put it in my fish + inverts tank, and now I see strange blemishes on it. All the other fish look fine. Any ideas? Flukes?

Those look like Neobenedenia flukes, but I cannot explain why they are gray/cloudy, they are usually completely clear unless being treated with prazi or hyposalinity, then they tend to turn cloudy like that.

 

[BilboB]

Those look like Neobenedenia flukes, but I cannot explain why they are gray/cloudy, they are usually completely clear unless being treated with prazi or hyposalinity, then they tend to turn cloudy like that.

Oh dear. Can fish clear themselves of Neobenedenia flukes? Can these flukes attack my other fish?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Oh dear. Can fish clear themselves of Neobenedenia flukes? Can these flukes attack my other fish?

No and yes.

I think you should first try a five minute freshwater dip. The flukes will fall off and that will confirm the diagnosis. It won’t cure the fish though, there will still be eggs and larva in the tank.

To treat the whole tank, you’ll need to either treat with praziquantel (reef safe) or hyposalinity - not safe for corals or invertebrates.

 

[BilboB]

No and yes.

I think you should first try a five minute freshwater dip. The flukes will fall off and that will confirm the diagnosis. It won’t cure the fish though, there will still be eggs and larva in the tank.

To treat the whole tank, you’ll need to either treat with praziquantel (reef safe) or hyposalinity - not safe for corals or invertebrates.

OK, thanks. After all the troubles I've had, I'm going to have to set up a conditioned QT again.

 

[BilboB]

No and yes.

I think you should first try a five minute freshwater dip. The flukes will fall off and that will confirm the diagnosis. It won’t cure the fish though, there will still be eggs and larva in the tank.

To treat the whole tank, you’ll need to either treat with praziquantel (reef safe) or hyposalinity - not safe for corals or invertebrates.

I wasn't able to catch the Niger trigger, so if the problem is Neobenedenia then all my fish will die if I don't do something, right? I'm now thinking I should remove all the inverts to another tank and do the hyposalinity course you posted.

However, I'm concerned about the inverts. I've got 8 starfish - chocolate chip, red knobbed, double star and orange linckias, plus a huge anemone, some hermit crabs and some snails - can I keep them alive in a 10g or 20g tank for 35 days? I have no idea if the orange linckias or snails will eat any food. Any tips?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I wasn't able to catch the Niger trigger, so if the problem is Neobenedenia then all my fish will die if I don't do something, right? I'm now thinking I should remove all the inverts to another tank and do the hyposalinity course you posted.

However, I'm concerned about the inverts. I've got 8 starfish - chocolate chip, red knobbed, double star and orange linckias, plus a huge anemone, some hermit crabs and some snails - can I keep them alive in a 10g or 20g tank for 35 days? I have no idea if the orange linckias or snails will eat any food. Any tips?

I really wish you could confirm that it is Neo before going into a full hyposalinity treatment. Niger triggers sleep at night, you might be able to catch it by hand when it is sleeping, that's how fish collectors catch them in Hawaii.

Another option would be to treat the whole tank with praziquantel. That is safe for invertebrates. It doesn't work as well on Neo, but if the symptoms resolve after the first treatment, then at least you know it is Neo.....

 

[BilboB]

I really wish you could confirm that it is Neo before going into a full hyposalinity treatment. Niger triggers sleep at night, you might be able to catch it by hand when it is sleeping, that's how fish collectors catch them in Hawaii.

Another option would be to treat the whole tank with praziquantel. That is safe for invertebrates. It doesn't work as well on Neo, but if the symptoms resolve after the first treatment, then at least you know it is Neo.....

OK, I'll try catching the fish while it sleeps and doing a freshwater dip, then I'll put it in the QT. If I can't catch the fish, I'll dose the whole tank with prazi 5x 8 days. About the protocol - do I need to do the higher-concentration dips/incubations? Also, should I do any water changes?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

OK, I'll try catching the fish while it sleeps and doing a freshwater dip, then I'll put it in the QT. If I can't catch the fish, I'll dose the whole tank with prazi 5x 8 days. About the protocol - do I need to do the higher-concentration dips/incubations? Also, should I do any water changes?

What brand of prazi would you be using?

 

[BilboB]

What brand of prazi would you be using?

I have KOI Prazi powder, which I'll dissolve in ethanol.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I have KOI Prazi powder, which I'll dissolve in ethanol.

Yikes! Don’t dissolve it in ethanol unless you’ve done that before! Just a smidge too much of it and you’ll grow bacteria that will strip oxygen out of the water (it’s essentially the same as over-carbon dosing).

Much better to express the powder through a fine mesh net. I’ve you’ve ever watched ethanol dissolved prazi closely, you’ll see it immediately comes back out of solution as a suspension when it hits seawater.

 

[BilboB]

Yikes! Don’t dissolve it in ethanol unless you’ve done that before! Just a smidge too much of it and you’ll grow bacteria that will strip oxygen out of the water (it’s essentially the same as over-carbon dosing).

Much better to express the powder through a fine mesh net. I’ve you’ve ever watched ethanol dissolved prazi closely, you’ll see it immediately comes back out of solution as a suspension when it hits seawater.

What do you mean by "express"? I don't understand how this will dissolve the powder in the seawater.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

What do you mean by "express"? I don't understand how this will dissolve the powder in the seawater.

Sorry - it means to “Push through”. I’ll put the prazi in a brine shrimp net or pantyhose, dunk it in the tank, and with my gloved hand, rub and press it until it comes through the material out into the tank. Some people just stir it up in a container of tank water and pour it in, but I think that makes things too “chunky”.

Prazi has very low solubility in seawater, but the fine particles hit the flukes and cause them to drop off of the fish.

 

[BilboB]

Sorry - it means to “Push through”. I’ll put the prazi in a brine shrimp net or pantyhose, dunk it in the tank, and with my gloved hand, rub and press it until it comes through the material out into the tank. Some people just stir it up in a container of tank water and pour it in, but I think that makes things too “chunky”.

Prazi has very low solubility in seawater, but the fine particles hit the flukes and cause them to drop off of the fish.

Sorry for my ignorance, but (1) when you dunk it in the tank, what's to prevent the prazi particles from flowing up and out of the net and (2) does all the prazi get pushed through the net? Mechanistically, does pushing the particles reduce their size so they dissolve faster?

Edit: I just found a youtube short showing how to do it.

 

[BilboB]

Update: I had someone do a freshwater dip on the Niger trigger on August 12, and all the flukes came off. However, my clown trigger now has the flukes, mostly on his eyes and fins. Apparently I waited too long to treat the Niger trigger. I just did a freshwater dip on the clown trigger. If these flukes start spreading to other fish, I'll dose the tank with Prazi.

 

[christinna77]

I think you need to dose the tank now. There's basically no chance the flukes were isolated to just two fish, and the eggs survive FW dips. So you likely still have flukes in the tank. This kind is extremely hard to get rid of, so I'd probably go hypo instead, as Jay recommended.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Update: I had someone do a freshwater dip on the Niger trigger on August 12, and all the flukes came off. However, my clown trigger now has the flukes, mostly on his eyes and fins. Apparently I waited too long to treat the Niger trigger. I just did a freshwater dip on the clown trigger. If these flukes start spreading to other fish, I'll dose the tank with Prazi.

You need to dose the whole tank - with Neobenedenia flukes, there are eggs in the tank that will just restart the infection after each dip. Even with three rounds of praziquantel, this species can be difficult to control. Hyposalinity works better, but you cannot do that when corals and invertebrates are present.

 

[BilboB]

You need to dose the whole tank - with Neobenedenia flukes, there are eggs in the tank that will just restart the infection after each dip. Even with three rounds of praziquantel, this species can be difficult to control. Hyposalinity works better, but you cannot do that when corals and invertebrates are present.

Well, the good thing about Neobenedenia is that you can see the flukes. Right now only 1 of the 10 or so fish are infected. If it starts getting out of hand, I'll dose the tank with prazi.

 

[christinna77]

Well, the good thing about Neobenedenia is that you can see the flukes. Right now only 1 of the 10 or so fish are infected. If it starts getting out of hand, I'll dose the tank with prazi.

How do you know only 1 out of 10 fish are infected, did you FW dip them all? And how will you know when it's starting to get out of hand, are you going to keep catching and FW dipping them? That seems pretty stressful.

Just sharing my experience with these flukes: mine survived 5 total doses of prazi and the two fish looked mostly "fine" until suddenly they weren't. They'd occasionally shake their heads or flash, but watching them for 10-15 minutes every day wouldn't reveal that (I only caught it on my camera footage I'd go over religiously at the end of each day).

Then one day one fish suddenly stopped eating, was breathing heavily and its head was covered in slime. It really went from 0 to 100 in a day and they barely handled the FW dip (more than 20 flukes came out and both were very exhausted after that). Hypo also took several days to get to the therapeutic level...

If it were me, I really wouldn't wait. There's a good chance prazi won't even work and you may end up having to catch them all for hypo anyway. If you know you have flukes, act now, not when the fish are heavily infected and at risk of bleeding out after the flukes fall off.