Surprising! Vortech anti-sync behavior in "Ecosmart" modes

[Greenjeans]

The Ecotech manual isn't very clear about the behavior of a slave pump in anti-sync mode when the master pump is set to a particular profile, so I decided to investigate.

From ecotech-

When a master pump is initiated and running in any one of the normal modes (such as Constant Speed, Random, Short Pulse, or Gyre), it sends out a signal telling other pumps what mode it is operating and what speed it is running at. VorTech pumps set to operate as slaves will listen for the master pump’s wireless signal and do either the same as the master pump (Sync Mode), or the opposite (Anti-Sync Mode). Slave pumps set in Sync Mode will perform exactly the same as the master pump and will be indicated by a white LED on the QuietDrive driver’s knob. Slave pumps set in Anti-Sync Mode will perform exactly the inverse of the master pump and will be indicated by the Control Dial illuminating Orange.For example, if the master pump is running at 80% speed, a slave pump in sync mode will run at 80% also. If that same slave pump was operating in Anti-Sync Mode, it will run at 20% speed (this is the inverse speed of 80%). As the master pump slows down, a slave pump in Sync Mode will slow down with it and a slave pump in Anti-Sync Mode will speed up.

While normally you cannot change the speed of a slave pump, because the speed is determined entirely by the master pump, with the EcoSmart driver you now have the ability to control the maximum speed of individual slave pumps independently from the master. This will come in handy if your aquarium setup requires higher flow in most areas but lower flows in other areas such as if a slave pump is used to provide spot flow to a delicate coral, or if it is used on the back of a narrow tank. In the default setting, a slave pump will always do exactly the same thing or the inverse of the master pump (based on whether it is set to Sync or Anti-Sync), and therefore the maximum speed that a slave pump can achieve is governed by the master pump

Unlike conventional modes (Constant Speed, Random, Short Pulse, and Long Pulse), when a master pump is set to an EcoSmart mode the slave pumps will not have Sync or Anti-Sync Mode options. Instead, they have settings which correspond to the pump’s position on the aquarium. There are three EcoSmart slave modes and they are (white, orange, turquoise)

I ran a couple extension cords from my EB832 and plugged in my two MP40qd to log power consumption data from the Apex.

For all the following charts, the master pump is set to this profile

----------------------------
With the slave set to 100% anti-sync-

the power consumption looks like this-

- The slave power limit matches the master power limit in "normal" modes (lagoon, reefcrest)
- The slave power limit is 100% in "Ecosmart" modes (TidalSwell, NutrientTransport)

This is odd! In "normal" modes, the master pump can never be set lower than the slave pump. in "ecosmart" modes, they're totally independent!

My goal is to have even flow throughout the day - so I need to set the slave to anti-sync@100% when the master is in a "normal" mode, and set then also set the slave to match the master pump's power limit during "ecosmart" modes.

Here's the slave pump profile I came up with -

And today's power consumption -

 

[Greenjeans]

Here's over 3 days worth of data, using the new slave pump profile shown above (Async@100% during normal modes, Async@matched during Ecosmart modes)

I added a trendline that shows a 50-minute average of the data, pretty interesting that the slave pump averages a lower power than the master pump when set to Async@100%...I would think their trend lines should match, that they should average the same power output over a 50 minute period. I guess this means there's no way to closely match the two pumps?

 

[Greenjeans]

It also appears like the master pump is gradually changing power according to the profile chart, but the slave pump is not? The slave pump is flat from 19:00 - 5:00

 

[Hydrored]

From what you are showing I would assume not, the flow of the pumps each change due to buildup and other crap anyways. It took me 3 months to move around my 4 MP40's to find flow the corals seem to be happy with. Interestingly enough, having all 4 pumps offset/different heights had more impact on flow then matching percentages. I would put a wooden air stone in the tank and observe

 

[Xero]

You DO need to use sync or anti-sync mode depending on which mode it is, like in constant mode, you need to use sync, or it will go whacky....You can definitely find stuff about this if you search for it, but i agree, it's not as well documented as it should be.

Truthfully, I feel like this is more a WXM bug because it doesn't seem to support these notion of "positions" its basically equivalent to making all the pumps slave to the WXM, which is acting as a master. The reeflink communicates with these pumps in an entirely different way - it seems to be able to individually address them by serial number and such, almost like smart home devices on a smart home network (it is using zigbee, afterall...). It also makes you setup the tank and put them in the various "positions" which the WXM just has no way to do at all. It truly doesn't feel like the WXM is able to use all the features of the pump, it doesn't actually let you program a lot of the options, either. I've sort of always choked this up to the neptune/ecotech beef, and just them not really wanting to play well together. I don't see it getting any better, either.

 

[Greenjeans]

Yeah, I'm aware of when to use sync or anti-sync - this is specifically to investigate anti-sync behavior in various modes.

You know, I think you're probably right about how well the WXM supports the Vortechs. I think using an anti-sync profile from the profiles page runs completely differently than setting the slave pump to anti-sync in the chart (like when using an anti-sync profile during a feed cycle), for instance...inconsistent behavior.

What options aren't you able to program with the WXM? These may just be software kinks that their development team could iron out...

 

[Xero]

You can't program the "dim" mode, where it dims its lights after no activity, nor can you program the speed of the feed mode, from the WXM. But you can from the reeflink. And if I recall - you can still program it manually on the controller itself, individually. It's just not supported from the WXM. Likewise, the WXM can't update the firmware of the newer pumps. I use my reeflink to do all my firmware updates, then I will reset them and put them back on the WXM.

Heh, I wish I could say this without sounding cocky, but I pretty much know I'm right. I've done a ton of smart home integration and work with zigbee/802.15.4 protocol, to me, it's beyond clear that neptune has only reverse-engineered the "dumb" pairing mode of the pump, and is not fully addressing them the way reeflink does. If I had the time, I'd be tempted to dig into the protocol further, but I simply don't care enough at this point now that mobius is likely replacing half of it with bluetooth, and it's clear this partnership between them is pretty much dead in the water. I'm not hopeful that any of this would be worked out through software, and truthfully, I would question whether that's truly possible with the "dumb" pairing mode, my guess, it's not. They'd likely have to fully reverse-engineer the protocol, which no one has done yet to my knowledge.

You can actually see all the FCC Filings, where, in 2017, they added bluetooth to the RF chip, alongside the zigbee protocol. The "mobius chip" as many are calling it. All signs indicate they are slowly moving away from zigbee/IEEE 802.15.4. I am not sure what I plan to do, but I now own both a reeflink and 2x WXMs (one on each frequency), and only a fraction of my pumps are up to date enough for mobius....it's a bit of a weird situation for me, I'm in this too dang deep. I had run into various issues with the WXM setup, and trying to get support from EITHER company was quite frankly, a joke. I ended up just figuring out most of my issues on my own.

 

[Greenjeans]

Thanks for the thoughts.

Just a note on my experience with customer support - my WXM was DOA. Support was very skeptical (I'm a software engineer, I knew it was dead), but after they were able to convince themselves enough by logging into my apex remotely, they RMA'd it and got it back to me in about a week.

What I now know based on the collected data, I'm happy with the WXM for now.

I do still need to figure out the ideal pump placement to get optimal flow. My tank is still new with no corals, so I have some options...currently the pumps are just facing eachother on opposite sides of the (4x2x2) tank, 2/3rd up and 2/3rd forward. Great suggestion with the air stone, I guess I'm not yet confident that I know what good flow looks like...any tips?

 

[homer1475]

Mobius will actually "talk" to the MP via wifi. Been stated by ecotech many times in the mobious thread. It's just that they have not released the update to mobius to their regular customers, just beta testers.

 

[Xero]

Mobius will actually "talk" to the MP via wifi. Been stated by ecotech many times in the mobious thread. It's just that they have not released the update to mobius to their regular customers, just beta testers.

Bluetooth LE, not wifi. No wifi chips in them. The FCC listings will confirm this. They did talk about coming out with a "wifi to bluetooth bridge" to add back the ability to remotely-manage mobius products, but this is slated "for the future"

Likewise, AI is all moving to Bluetooth LE as well, the latest AI lights no longer have any wifi.

 

[Potatohead]

In Ecosmart modes each pump label is more like "left," right" or "back" instead of master/slave.

 

[Greenjeans]

Yeah, but in the Apex the are only ever three options - Sync, Antisync and Eco-Back. I assume anti-sync when the mast is in ecosmart modes to be "opposite-side"

 

[Xero]

sync does the same thing, and anti-sync does the opposite, yes.

I have a tank with 3 vortechs - two on one side, one on the other. Of the two on the same side - one has the actual program, one has sync, and the one on the other side has anti-sync.

afaik, there's no way to do "back" or any of the other mode with WXM. Just another thing it can't do.

 

[Greenjeans]

There's an "Eco-Back" mode that allows you to select a master pump.

 

[Xero]

There's an "Eco-Back" mode that allows you to select a master pump.

Oh .....you're totally right. I forgot about that.

I even found a thing saying this is basically the sync mode for the back pump for NTM and TSM modes. HMM!!! So I guess you CAN do this. But it only works for those two modes, I think.

 

[Bgriff0819]

What about lagoon and reef crest mode? Is it Anti sync? And Tidal swell and Nutrient transport mode? I have one MP40 on each side at 12am to 6am it’s in lagoon mode, then 6am-9am tidal swell, then 9am to 12pm NTM, And 12pm-12am Reef Crest. Any help would be appreciated I do t think I have these synced correctly

 

[Potatohead]

What about lagoon and reef crest mode? Is it Anti sync? And Tidal swell and Nutrient transport mode? I have one MP40 on each side at 12am to 6am it’s in lagoon mode, then 6am-9am tidal swell, then 9am to 12pm NTM, And 12pm-12am Reef Crest. Any help would be appreciated I do t think I have these synced correctly

Depends on what you want the pumps to do. In regular modes you can assign no master/slave/sync/antisync at all, and they will just follow the program independent of each other. If they're master/slave synced, they will ramp up and down together, or anti sync they will do opposite to each other.

In Ecosmart modes (NT and TS) modes you want one master, one antisynced on the other side, and the ones on the back labeled as back.

Lastly, when you program the speed of the slave pump, in regular modes you are programming the speed in relation to the master. So if the master is set to 70%, the slave at 100% will actually match the master at 70%. However in ecosmart modes the speed setting is the maximum speed of the pump no matter what else is going on.

The whole thing is confusing for sure.

 

[Bgriff0819]

Depends on what you want the pumps to do. In regular modes you can assign no master/slave/sync/antisync at all, and they will just follow the program independent of each other. If they're master/slave synced, they will ramp up and down together, or anti sync they will do opposite to each other.

In Ecosmart modes (NT and TS) modes you want one master, one antisynced on the other side, and the ones on the back labeled as back.

Lastly, when you program the speed of the slave pump, in regular modes you are programming the speed in relation to the master. So if the master is set to 70%, the slave at 100% will actually match the master at 70%. However in ecosmart modes the speed setting is the maximum speed of the pump no matter what else is going on.

The whole thing is confusing for sure.

Wow I’m lost lol I guess in reef crest and lagoon I’ll do anti as they are two modes changing frequently? And as far as TS and NT I’m not sure what to do I have no pumps on the back just one MP on each end of the tank so should I not use TS or NT? With Mobius there isn’t really a master or slave pump according to Ecotech they said you can set up each pump And I did that and mimic the first using the “child” setting it’s called which basically does the same as the other pump but I can choose sync,anti, or EcoSmart I’ve never gone this far into setting up flow

 

[Greenjeans]

Your pumps are paired with each other in a master/slave relationship, that's the "child" thing.

Because your pumps are facing each other on opposite sides of the aquarium, set them to anti-sync. The exception is if the master pump is set to constant power - you'll want them to run in sync if you enable this mode.

You'll have to set the pump intensity based on the setting it's currently in, see @Potatohead's excellent description or earlier posts in this thread where the differences between "regular" and "ecosmart" modes are represented in graphs.

 

[Bgriff0819]

Ok I think I understand. So wouldn’t really make sense to use TS or NT mode because it’s not going to do what it’s designed to do with two pumps right? I have no pumps on the back