Tang Aggression - Understanding and Combating

blackstallion

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Same time, quarantined together ideally.

Just received this guy today from Liveaquaria. He seems to have acclimated well and is in a QT tank with Copper and Metro. I did throw in a piece of thawed PE Mysis with garlic and Selcon mixed but he wasn't interested, although it's literally only been a couple hours.

How quickly do these guys typically start eating? When should I become "worried"? I realize Zebrasoma's can be intolerant of Copper, so keeping that in mind, when should I consider a WC and/or stripping the Cu to see if he'll eat?

And some people recommend feeding GC mixed with food immediately, yet some say hold off until week 2? What's your take?

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4FordFamily

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Just received this guy today from Liveaquaria. He seems to have acclimated well and is in a QT tank with Copper and Metro. I did throw in a piece of thawed PE Mysis with garlic and Selcon mixed but he wasn't interested, although it's literally only been a couple hours.

How quickly do these guys typically start eating? When should I become "worried"? I realize Zebrasoma's can be intolerant of Copper, so keeping that in mind, when should I consider a WC and/or stripping the Cu to see if he'll eat?

And some people recommend feeding GC mixed with food immediately, yet some say hold off until week 2? What's your take?

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I have found that copper intolerant zebrasoma tangs are VERY rare. The vast majority (overwhelming majority) are quite hardy with regards to copper. They often get minor HLLE in copper which clears up with good nutrition shortly afterward, typically -- assuming they've been in clean water for the duration of QT. This worsens with dirtier water, IME.

Give it 24 hours, it'll likely eat. If not, try live brine. Works for almost all tangs! :D
 

blackstallion

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I have found that copper intolerant zebrasoma tangs are VERY rare. The vast majority (overwhelming majority) are quite hardy with regards to copper. They often get minor HLLE in copper which clears up with good nutrition shortly afterward, typically -- assuming they've been in clean water for the duration of QT. This worsens with dirtier water, IME.

Give it 24 hours, it'll likely eat. If not, try live brine. Works for almost all tangs! :D
He did start eating, and he's been pretty active up to this point.

However, this evening I dosed the final small Cu dose to get up to the final 2.25ppm level I was aiming for and recommend on this forum. I just checked on him before bed and he was very lathargic, kind of just floating down near the bottom of the tank. Didn't seem like he was breathing to hard or anything, but, not what I expected of him seeing as he's been very active the last several days. He did swim around a little when I turned the light on, but, went back to floating in the same spot by the heater. Is this indicative of intolerance to the Cu?

Hopefully he makes it through the night. If he's still acting like this in the morning, should I consider a WC to bring down Cu levels and see if he starts acting "normal" again?

20200907_221252.jpg
 
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He did start eating, and he's been pretty active up to this point.

However, this evening I dosed the final small Cu dose to get up to the final 2.25ppm level I was aiming for and recommend on this forum. I just checked on him before bed and he was very lathargic, kind of just floating down near the bottom of the tank. Didn't seem like he was breathing to hard or anything, but, not what I expected of him seeing as he's been very active the last several days. He did swim around a little when I turned the light on, but, went back to floating in the same spot by the heater. Is this indicative of intolerance to the Cu?

Hopefully he makes it through the night. If he's still acting like this in the morning, should I consider a WC to bring down Cu levels and see if he starts acting "normal" again?

20200907_221252.jpg
No, intolerant of CU for zebrasoma tangs is usually immense color loss, refusing to eat, and sometimes seizures. What you're describing is most likely a sleepy zebrasoma tang. If he's eating and not losing color without physical ailments, I wouldn't be concerned.
 
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blackstallion

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No, intolerant of CU for zebrasoma tangs is usually immense color loss, refusing to eat, and sometimes seizures. What you're describing is most likely a sleepy zebrasoma tang. If he's eating and not losing color without physical ailments, I wouldn't be concerned.
@4FordFamily I am following your latest QT method from page 59 of this QT thread for this Purple:


Currently the Purple is beginning 14 day's of Copper Power QT at 2.25ppm and I am concurrently dosing Metroplex into the water every other day.

My plan will be to begin feeding GC soaked food the second week as you instructed to treat any internal worms or parasites and carry over into the first week in the sterile tank. I assume I continue adding Metroplex into the water column as well during that 2nd week in the first tank?

Regarding treating with Prazi in the sterile tank on week 3, @HotRocks preferred method in the OP of that thread was GC dosed into the water column twice as the Prazi treatment, is that your method as well, or did you mean something like Prazipro? I'm not sure if feeding GC soaked food ALONG with dosing GC into the water column at the same time will be over medicating?

Appreciate your feedback!
 
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@4FordFamily I am following your latest QT method from page 59 of this QT thread for this Purple:


Currently the Purple is beginning 14 day's of Copper Power QT at 2.25ppm and I am concurrently dosing Metroplex into the water every other day.

My plan will be to begin feeding GC soaked food the second week as you instructed to treat any internal worms or parasites and carry over into the first week in the sterile tank. I assume I continue adding Metroplex into the water column as well during that 2nd week in the first tank?

Regarding treating with Prazi in the sterile tank on week 3, @HotRocks preferred method in the OP of that thread was GC dosed into the water column twice as the Prazi treatment, is that your method as well, or did you mean something like Prazipro? I'm not sure if feeding GC soaked food ALONG with dosing GC into the water column at the same time will be over medicating?

Appreciate your feedback!
Hello,

Unfortunately quarantining is becoming a moving target, it seems. But yes as long as you have a sterile QT and don't contaminate, the 14 days in copper, with metro (yes the entire time to answer your question) and feeding GC I would do that as well, yes.

Prazi is for flukes. General cure DOES contain prazi and metroplex but the purpose in food is to treat for internal parasites. For flukes and similar external bugs (black ich for example), the water column is the best method. You can dose in the tank twice. Some people do a bath for the fish before QT and then treat the QT once 5-7 days after as well. Since they're in there already, I'd just dose it in the tank. It may slow down feeding response initially, usually within 24 hours it's back with a vengeance (if you notice a difference at all).

Metroplex in the water column primarily handles uronema and brooklynella.

That many meds in conjunction CAN cause blooms -- so be ready with large water changes and re-dosing. It's important to take the fish out during these WC and make sure the new tankwater is fully medicated BEFORE returning the fish.

I hope that helps!
 

jaxteller007

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Because the yellow and purple are in the same genus, there IS a risk. But of your options, this is the lesser risk as they often get over their differences within the genus. An IDEAL option would be to sub the purple for a bristle-tooth tang such as a Kole or White Tail.

If not, just add the tangs together at the same time for best results (as far as aggression risk mitigation).

I'm so thankful our two yellows seemed to have worked out their differences for the most part. Not sure how we got lucky but ill take it. I'm wondering if there being 3 initially (the smallest one died within Iike 2 days. He didn't look good from day 1) helped the two survivors tolerate each other. We also did a mirror across the front with minimal lighting for a couple days, overfeed and have a large active Lt Tang and a Valaminigi now. Maybe just a good/lucky combination of factors.

Also I don't care what anyone says I think the Lt and Vlamingi are gorgeous fish lol. And definitely full of personality.
 

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@4FordFamily Is it ok to start a Tang in hypo-salinity 1.009 AND treat with Copper Power at the same time?

Reason I ask is I have a Yellow Tang coming in from an online vendor that states they will be shipping in 1.009 SG water.

I am adjusting my QT tank to 1.009 SG to make the acclimation as smooth as possible, but, should I pre-dose the hypo-salinity water with Cu to the 1ppm recommended prior to introducing the Tang OR should I first bring the SG levels up to a more normal level ie. 1.019 and THEN start Cu treatment?
 
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@4FordFamily Is it ok to start a Tang in hypo-salinity 1.009 AND treat with Copper Power at the same time?

Reason I ask is I have a Yellow Tang coming in from an online vendor that states they will be shipping in 1.009 SG water.

I am adjusting my QT tank to 1.009 SG to make the acclimation as smooth as possible, but, should I pre-dose the hypo-salinity water with Cu to the 1ppm recommended prior to introducing the Tang OR should I first bring the SG levels up to a more normal level ie. 1.019 and THEN start Cu treatment?

Hi,

It's not well advised to mix both treatments. CAN it be done? sometimes, successfully. It isn't necessary though, and increases the odds of harming the fish. I'd just acclimate it to something a hair saltier, and slowly increase salinity over the next few days. I wouldn't wait until it's the proper specific gravity before treating, it's more about drastic jumps being bad conditions for the fish. Extended periods of time under both conditions would be problematic though.
 
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Hi,

It's not well advised to mix both treatments. CAN it be done? sometimes, successfully. It isn't necessary though, and increases the odds of harming the fish. I'd just acclimate it to something a hair saltier, and slowly increase salinity over the next few days. I wouldn't wait until it's the proper specific gravity before treating, it's more about drastic jumps being bad conditions for the fish. Extended periods of time under both conditions would be problematic though.

If the shipping container SG is 1.009, is there a safe jump in SG ie. 1.011, 1.013? that would not require drip acclimation and I could throw the fish directly into the QT tank after temperature acclimation?
 
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If the shipping container SG is 1.009, is there a safe jump in SG ie. 1.011, 1.013? that would not require drip acclimation and I could throw the fish directly into the QT tank after temperature acclimation?
I'd say 1.011-1.013 is probably fine. Often, that's within the range of "instrument error" anyhow. :)
 

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@4FordFamily I've started to come around on the possibility of adding a blue hippo. I've always been resistant to them because quite frankly, every one I've encountered has been dumb as a box of rocks. But I've come around on them and they can be quite good looking fish. I've given up on adding a PBT unless I eventually go big (like 10 ft long tank lol) and from a purely aesthetic point of view I think a blue hippo would go great with the current lineup. I'm hesitant about adding another tang just because whatever is making our tank work now, is working and I'd hate to jack it up. We have two yellow tangs that don't really bother each other, a tomini who just does his own thing, the Lt tang who is kind of the boss of the tank for now and the vlaminigi whose starting to realize he's big enough to not let the Lt boss him around all the time.
We have some chasing now and then like you'd expect but nothing that's ever concerned me or made me thing we have to pull a fish out immediately. What do you think about adding a blue hippo? Would you look for one somewhat larger since we do have the two bigger guys in the tank already. I have to admit it's fun watching how fast these guys grow from the little things we get but priority one is the fish's well being.
We have 2 large man made caves (the vlaminigi likes to use these), 1 smaller one that the tomini uses and then I've always made sure to make the rock work have as many caves and hiding places as possible. I'm going to start making my own caves with new rock outside of the tank and slowly swap out some of the bigger pieces of rock in the tank. I like having multiple "portable" hiding places so I can re-arrange things easily if needed.

Thanks for all the advice you've given too. It's definitely helped us have the lineup we have successfully.
 

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Also, do any of y'alls tangs "dig" holes under rocks for hiding spots? Our Lt tang has cleared the sand out underneath one of our rock formations all the way to the egg crate to make his home. And he will "clean" it if empty shells or too much sand gets back in there for his liking. He shakes his tail super fast and sends it all flying out. It's hilarious to watch. He's like our own little OCD fish.
 

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An update on the Yellow Tang that I received from an online vendor. He came Fedex Priority overnight with a water logged box when the package arrived. Needless to say, there was a hole in the bag and nearly NO water left, I was SHOCKED he was still alive. My guess is rough FedEx handling caused him to poke a hole in the bag with his sharp spines.

I had no choice but to throw him in the QT immediately, which luckily was almost perfectly matching SG with respect to the small amount of water I could test from his bag. Things were dicey for the first hour or so as he stayed on the bottom of the tank upside down but breathing and moving. He is doing much better now and moving around the tank well.

However, he has not eaten yet. The vendor suggested shredding the seaweed into particulate form for him to eat from the water column. Has anyone ever heard of this method? Up to this point he has refused to eat Ocean Nutrition Green Marine Algae with garlic, a variety of pellets and frozen Mysis.

Right now the QT is only dosed with Cu up to 1.0ppm and Metro.

How long before I need to go into emergency mode for this guy to eat?

20200925_160359.jpg


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How long before I need to go into emergency mode for this guy to eat?

He doesn't look emaciated yet. After such a tough trip it's not surprising he won't eat yet. I would wait another day or two before stepping up a notch. Just keep things dark and calm for now until he recovers from the transit.
 

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He doesn't look emaciated yet. After such a tough trip it's not surprising he won't eat yet. I would wait another day or two before stepping up a notch. Just keep things dark and calm for now until he recovers from the transit.
I agree he is not showing signs of emaciation. He's been in the QT tank now for about 60 hours and does not want to eat. I am just wondering how long he can go before it becomes an "emergency".

The seller stated I should try particulating the seaweed and introduce into the water column to get him eating, but that hasn't worked either even when soaking the seaweed in garlic overnight.
 

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@4FordFamily I've started to come around on the possibility of adding a blue hippo. I've always been resistant to them because quite frankly, every one I've encountered has been dumb as a box of rocks. But I've come around on them and they can be quite good looking fish. I've given up on adding a PBT unless I eventually go big (like 10 ft long tank lol) and from a purely aesthetic point of view I think a blue hippo would go great with the current lineup. I'm hesitant about adding another tang just because whatever is making our tank work now, is working and I'd hate to jack it up. We have two yellow tangs that don't really bother each other, a tomini who just does his own thing, the Lt tang who is kind of the boss of the tank for now and the vlaminigi whose starting to realize he's big enough to not let the Lt boss him around all the time.
We have some chasing now and then like you'd expect but nothing that's ever concerned me or made me thing we have to pull a fish out immediately. What do you think about adding a blue hippo? Would you look for one somewhat larger since we do have the two bigger guys in the tank already. I have to admit it's fun watching how fast these guys grow from the little things we get but priority one is the fish's well being.
We have 2 large man made caves (the vlaminigi likes to use these), 1 smaller one that the tomini uses and then I've always made sure to make the rock work have as many caves and hiding places as possible. I'm going to start making my own caves with new rock outside of the tank and slowly swap out some of the bigger pieces of rock in the tank. I like having multiple "portable" hiding places so I can re-arrange things easily if needed.

Thanks for all the advice you've given too. It's definitely helped us have the lineup we have successfully.

@4FordFamily did you see this? I know you're probably busy with actual work these days lol.
 
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@4FordFamily I've started to come around on the possibility of adding a blue hippo. I've always been resistant to them because quite frankly, every one I've encountered has been dumb as a box of rocks. But I've come around on them and they can be quite good looking fish. I've given up on adding a PBT unless I eventually go big (like 10 ft long tank lol) and from a purely aesthetic point of view I think a blue hippo would go great with the current lineup. I'm hesitant about adding another tang just because whatever is making our tank work now, is working and I'd hate to jack it up. We have two yellow tangs that don't really bother each other, a tomini who just does his own thing, the Lt tang who is kind of the boss of the tank for now and the vlaminigi whose starting to realize he's big enough to not let the Lt boss him around all the time.
We have some chasing now and then like you'd expect but nothing that's ever concerned me or made me thing we have to pull a fish out immediately. What do you think about adding a blue hippo? Would you look for one somewhat larger since we do have the two bigger guys in the tank already. I have to admit it's fun watching how fast these guys grow from the little things we get but priority one is the fish's well being.
We have 2 large man made caves (the vlaminigi likes to use these), 1 smaller one that the tomini uses and then I've always made sure to make the rock work have as many caves and hiding places as possible. I'm going to start making my own caves with new rock outside of the tank and slowly swap out some of the bigger pieces of rock in the tank. I like having multiple "portable" hiding places so I can re-arrange things easily if needed.

Thanks for all the advice you've given too. It's definitely helped us have the lineup we have successfully.

Sorry for delay, I didn't get the notification. Yes, it would be risky though. Hippo seem to fly under the radar of some aggressive tangs, but adding a single tang to many, is, well, very risky. Not a best-case scenario. I'd suggest an acclimation box first.

Also, do any of y'alls tangs "dig" holes under rocks for hiding spots? Our Lt tang has cleared the sand out underneath one of our rock formations all the way to the egg crate to make his home. And he will "clean" it if empty shells or too much sand gets back in there for his liking. He shakes his tail super fast and sends it all flying out. It's hilarious to watch. He's like our own little OCD fish.
I have not seen tangs do this often, that sounds like a real goof ball fish! :)

An update on the Yellow Tang that I received from an online vendor. He came Fedex Priority overnight with a water logged box when the package arrived. Needless to say, there was a hole in the bag and nearly NO water left, I was SHOCKED he was still alive. My guess is rough FedEx handling caused him to poke a hole in the bag with his sharp spines.

I had no choice but to throw him in the QT immediately, which luckily was almost perfectly matching SG with respect to the small amount of water I could test from his bag. Things were dicey for the first hour or so as he stayed on the bottom of the tank upside down but breathing and moving. He is doing much better now and moving around the tank well.

However, he has not eaten yet. The vendor suggested shredding the seaweed into particulate form for him to eat from the water column. Has anyone ever heard of this method? Up to this point he has refused to eat Ocean Nutrition Green Marine Algae with garlic, a variety of pellets and frozen Mysis.

Right now the QT is only dosed with Cu up to 1.0ppm and Metro.

How long before I need to go into emergency mode for this guy to eat?

20200925_160359.jpg


20200926_091558.jpg

There isn't much you can do, but live brine is my go to for tangs that won't eat. If he arrived as rough as it looks (upside down), it isn't surprising that the fish isn't feeling well enough to eat. Ensure there's no ammonia in the tank, and I agree, given that he's got some meat on his bones so to speak, you have some time. There really isn't an emergency protocol though, you cannot force them to eat -- not without doing more harm than good. But try live brine... a small amount initially. That seems to trigger feeding response, in addition to rubber banding nori on a rock (to mimic natural feeding on algae off of rocks in the wild).
 

jaxteller007

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Sorry for delay, I didn't get the notification. Yes, it would be risky though. Hippo seem to fly under the radar of some aggressive tangs, but adding a single tang to many, is, well, very risky. Not a best-case scenario. I'd suggest an acclimation box first.


I have not seen tangs do this often, that sounds like a real goof ball fish! :)

I'll keep that in mind about a hippo. We do have an acclimation box to use.
It will be hard to catch him doing it but here's what he's done to make his hole.

20200928_150944.jpg
20200928_150949.jpg
20200928_150943.jpg
 
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