Tang Aggression - Understanding and Combating

[4FordFamily]

Okay, so at the time they go in the tank will have the following:
- 4” rabbitfish
- 4” Swallowtail Angelfish x1
- Orchid Dottyback
- Yellow Assessor
- Harptail blenny
- Smith’s blenny
- 2” Lamarcks Angel

6 ft 200 gallon aquarium. If you were doing this would you do all 4 in QT at once or do 2 at a time? I know there’s risks both ways but curious what you’d suggest.

But for the previously mentioned drawbacks - from an aggression perspective all 4 at a time. :)

 

[FernBluffReef]

Excellent article. 85 pages wow. Need to set aside a few hours.

Since it’s a spotlight article.

I have a question, situation that seems odd to me, but maybe not all that unusual. Background: I returned to reefing last year about this time after a 22 year hiatus. I never had tangs before. My display tank is 5’ long, 112G display - 143G total. Early on I added a Scopas tang and later a RedSea Sailfin. The Sailfin has grown the fastest and is the boss. The Scopas remains a runt which isn’t surprising. I understand Sainfins can be mean.

Later on I added a powder blue, smaller than the Sailfin. Sailfin of course expressed his dominance and remains the dominant. The PBT and Scopas get along. The PBT took some bumps at first, got ich, etc but has recovered and is doing well. The Sailfin remains the largest of the three and the boss.

Observations.
- When the Sailfin gets testy, the PBT seems enjoy the chase (catch me if you can). Sailfin is the aggressor.

- Recently, last month or so, the Sailfin has adopted its adult colors and has become somewhat of a fraidy cat. He is still the tank boss but he seems to get spooked really easily / run and hide whenever there is activity in / around the tank. Such as cleaning glass, moving a coral, water change or even refilling the Nori feeder (dumb dumb)

- If in my cleaning tank, my hand gets near whereever his hiding, he now will fly out and attack me with his tail - yeah showing his dominance/ protecting his safe place

. Sailfin still regularly chases the PBT whenever he feels like it. (PBT seems to enjoy being chased / the attention) but for some reason the Sailfins now easily spooked behavior is causing him to loose out on meals or at least the first part of meals before he realizes he’s missing out and then is his usual pig. He’s not being bullied. He is the boss. I’ve seen evidence of him get poked back once but normally he’s the one doing the poking and the chasing.

So I’m wondering if this is normal behavior or a concerning sign for for the dominant to seemingly hide and cower at the slightest things while the other fish don’t seem to care

 

[4FordFamily]

Excellent article. 85 pages wow. Need to set aside a few hours.

Since it’s a spotlight article.

I have a question, situation that seems odd to me, but maybe not all that unusual. Background: I returned to reefing last year about this time after a 22 year hiatus. I never had tangs before. My display tank is 5’ long, 112G display - 143G total. Early on I added a Scopas tang and later a RedSea Sailfin. The Sailfin has grown the fastest and is the boss. The Scopas remains a runt which isn’t surprising. I understand Sainfins can be mean.

Later on I added a powder blue, smaller than the Sailfin. Sailfin of course expressed his dominance and remains the dominant. The PBT and Scopas get along. The PBT took some bumps at first, got ich, etc but has recovered and is doing well. The Sailfin remains the largest of the three and the boss.

Observations.
- When the Sailfin gets testy, the PBT seems enjoy the chase (catch me if you can). Sailfin is the aggressor.

- Recently, last month or so, the Sailfin has adopted its adult colors and has become somewhat of a fraidy cat. He is still the tank boss but he seems to get spooked really easily / run and hide whenever there is activity in / around the tank. Such as cleaning glass, moving a coral, water change or even refilling the Nori feeder (dumb dumb)

- If in my cleaning tank, my hand gets near whereever his hiding, he now will fly out and attack me with his tail - yeah showing his dominance/ protecting his safe place

. Sailfin still regularly chases the PBT whenever he feels like it. (PBT seems to enjoy being chased / the attention) but for some reason the Sailfins now easily spooked behavior is causing him to loose out on meals or at least the first part of meals before he realizes he’s missing out and then is his usual pig. He’s not being bullied. He is the boss. I’ve seen evidence of him get poked back once but normally he’s the one doing the poking and the chasing.

So I’m wondering if this is normal behavior or a concerning sign for for the dominant to seemingly hide and cower at the slightest things while the other fish don’t seem to care

This could be any number of things, but a few worthy of mention:

1) As fish mature their behavior can change.

2) I would be willing to bet that the tide is turning in the dominance pecking order. Acanthurus tangs often get more surly with age.

3) The fish may have been spooked by something and then hurt itself while fleeing. This can lead to a behavior change - particularly when it’s associated with you (common occurrence for arms in our tank when we are working in there). This often slowly dissipates over time.

4) Disease can change behavior, if ich or any other parasite is present any amount of stress can give the parasite the upper hand which can cause severe damage/further ailment. A weaker fish for any reason may become more skittish.

 

[FernBluffReef]

This could be any number of things, but a few worthy of mention:

1) As fish mature their behavior can change.

2) I would be willing to bet that the tide is turning in the dominance pecking order. Acanthurus tangs often get more surly with age.

3) Thr fish may have been spooked by something and then hurt itself while fleeing. This can lead to a behavior change - particularly when it’s associated with you (common occurrence for arms in our tank when we are working on it haha). This often slowly dissipates.

4) Disease can change behavior, if ich or any other parasite is present any amount of stress can give the parasite the upper hand which can cause severe damage/further ailment. A weaker fish for any reason may become more skittish.

Thanks fantastic insight. I’m also leaning towards #2 given the PBTs seeming to enjoy the chase but I’ve yet to see the PBT be the aggressor. Some of the others I never thought of - appreciate the insight

 

[DarkReefer]

Starting to get the itch to add some more fish to my 6ft 171gal tank and I do enjoy tangs and would love some more along with other various fish as I really like the look of those 'busy' tanks with a heap of fish and corals etc. but, I do worry about aggression and the like. Was considering possibly looking into a bristletooth tang (either something like the 2 spot or a tomini or some other variant) that may be able to assist with mowing down some GHA and keeping it at bay a little.
I had a small 2 spot a few years ago when I first started in the hobby (in a much, much smaller tank) but it apparently died when a LFS was holding my fish for me whilst I moved, it was a little aggressive though and actually starved out a sand sifting goby I had at the time, would rather not repeat that and not sure if this normal behavior of a 2 spot or if it was just a case of the tank being small (was only a 2ft cube display).

I'd also like something like an Achilles or possibly a yellow one day but I'm not sure how successful I may be with that and they're super expensive.
Currently the tank is fairly peaceful, apart from my purple tang chasing my CBB briefly from time to time.

Would love some suggestions for other tangs that I might be able consider adding in if possible?

Current fish list;
Blue Hippo tang (maybe 3-4")
Purple Tang (around similar size, maybe a touch larger than the blue)
1 Spot Foxface (about 5 or 6")
Occellaris Clownfish pair
Banana/Canary Wrasse
Cleaner Wrasse
Flame Hawkfish
Orange Spotted Goby pair
Copperband Butterfly fish (probably around 3" or so)
4x Cooperi Anthias

 

[4FordFamily]

Starting to get the itch to add some more fish to my 6ft 171gal tank and I do enjoy tangs and would love some more along with other various fish as I really like the look of those 'busy' tanks with a heap of fish and corals etc. but, I do worry about aggression and the like. Was considering possibly looking into a bristletooth tang (either something like the 2 spot or a tomini or some other variant) that may be able to assist with mowing down some GHA and keeping it at bay a little.
I had a small 2 spot a few years ago when I first started in the hobby (in a much, much smaller tank) but it apparently died when a LFS was holding my fish for me whilst I moved, it was a little aggressive though and actually starved out a sand sifting goby I had at the time, would rather not repeat that and not sure if this normal behavior of a 2 spot or if it was just a case of the tank being small (was only a 2ft cube display).

I'd also like something like an Achilles or possibly a yellow one day but I'm not sure how successful I may be with that and they're super expensive.
Currently the tank is fairly peaceful, apart from my purple tang chasing my CBB briefly from time to time.

Would love some suggestions for other tangs that I might be able consider adding in if possible?

Current fish list;
Blue Hippo tang (maybe 3-4")
Purple Tang (around similar size, maybe a touch larger than the blue)
1 Spot Foxface (about 5 or 6")
Occellaris Clownfish pair
Banana/Canary Wrasse
Cleaner Wrasse
Flame Hawkfish
Orange Spotted Goby pair
Copperband Butterfly fish (probably around 3" or so)
4x Cooperi Anthias

I would probably avoid most acanthurus tangs, but especially powder blue, Achilles, powder brown, and goldrim. One of my other articles will explain the why.

As far as adding, a resident purple may not welcome another zebrasoma tang (like a yellow) openly. You may have to add two zebrasoma tangs for that to work. Thankfully, many don’t hold long grudges. The myth that any tang helps marginally with GHA is unfortunate - really very few and very rarely do they make a notable dent. But they’re still great additions. You could definitely add one as well - so long as your nutrient export is sufficient for that fish load. Your tank sounds amazing so far!

Here is the promised link:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ears-of-experience-and-ich-management.206347/

 

[DarkReefer]

I would probably avoid most acanthurus tangs, but especially powder blue, Achilles, powder brown, and goldrim. One of my other articles will explain the why.

As far as adding, a resident purple may not welcome another zebrasoma tang (like a yellow) openly. You may have to add two zebrasoma tangs for that to work. Thankfully, many don’t hold long grudges. The myth that any tang helps marginally with GHA is unfortunate - really very few and very rarely do they make a notable dent. But they’re still great additions. You could definitely add one as well - so long as your nutrient export is sufficient for that fish load. Your tank sounds amazing so far!

Here is the promised link:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i...ears-of-experience-and-ich-management.206347/

Appreciate the feedback and the article.
I think I'll certainly look to avoid those acanthurus tangs in that case. Like you've done previously I've been ich managing since I started the hobby, and thankfully the fish have been doing alright and I don't seem to see any breakouts unless new fish come along and even then sometimes there's nothing. It's usually calmed down again after a few weeks (but not without moments of stress whilst using prazipro or epsom salts etc.), but if those particular fish are even more susceptible then I'll definitely look to pass unless I can QT everything and fallow as stated.

I went to a LFS on the way home yesterday from work and noticed they had a bunch of tomini, some baby yellow eye cole tangs (I do like the look of those but they were REALLY small) a yellow and 2 spot bristletooth.
I didn't buy anything on the spot because I wanted to read your article and research some more. I did also see a naso tang and forgot previously about these. Do these usually get along okay?

Still considering a bristletooth of some description and it's interesting to hear about the yellows and that adding 2 zebrasoma might be the way to go to aleviate aggression when/if it comes time to get some...

 

[4FordFamily]

Appreciate the feedback and the article.
I think I'll certainly look to avoid those acanthurus tangs in that case. Like you've done previously I've been ich managing since I started the hobby, and thankfully the fish have been doing alright and I don't seem to see any breakouts unless new fish come along and even then sometimes there's nothing. It's usually calmed down again after a few weeks (but not without moments of stress whilst using prazipro or epsom salts etc.), but if those particular fish are even more susceptible then I'll definitely look to pass unless I can QT everything and fallow as stated.

I went to a LFS on the way home yesterday from work and noticed they had a bunch of tomini, some baby yellow eye cole tangs (I do like the look of those but they were REALLY small) a yellow and 2 spot bristletooth.
I didn't buy anything on the spot because I wanted to read your article and research some more. I did also see a naso tang and forgot previously about these. Do these usually get along okay?

Still considering a bristletooth of some description and it's interesting to hear about the yellows and that adding 2 zebrasoma might be the way to go to aleviate aggression when/if it comes time to get some...

Glad to help! Naso tend to get along with everybody. The smaller ones are very fragile and difficult to get eating. I’d never buy one that I did not see eat. Once established, they’re very hardy. But the smaller ones are really difficult.

Bristleooth are great tangs I just don’t want you to expect them to make a dent in GHA or really any algae haha!

 

[salty joe]

Since we're talking a little bit about tangs and algae, I have a lieutenant that is an algae eating machine! And a purple that is maybe OK. And a foxface that is a lazy bum, not a tang but a lazy bum.

 

[DarkReefer]

Glad to help! Naso tend to get along with everybody. The smaller ones are very fragile and difficult to get eating. I’d never buy one that I did not see eat. Once established, they’re very hardy. But the smaller ones are really difficult.

Bristleooth are great tangs I just don’t want you to expect them to make a dent in GHA or really any algae haha!

Thanks again for the info!
Glad to hear the naso is pretty good once they're settled in. It's okay if the bristletooth doesn't really eat the algae, I'll still be happy to have more tangs :)

Since we're talking a little bit about tangs and algae, I have a lieutenant that is an algae eating machine! And a purple that is maybe OK. And a foxface that is a lazy bum, not a tang but a lazy bum.

Lucky! Unfortunately I don't think I'll get away with that type of tang after reading 4FordFamily's article.
My purple does a bit of pecking at rocks but doesn't visually seem to change much. My Foxface was amazing for bubble algae (which is why I got it in the first place), but now it eats zoas and stuff too which sucks because I would love to have more zoas. My CBB eats LPS corals like hammers too so now they're off the list lol.
Stuck with softies lately!

 

[VoodooReefer350]

New member here, and have a recently set up Reefer S550 that’s been up for 4 months now (mixed reef). I started with a pair of perculas and a 2” blue hippo that’s now about 3”. I also have a diamond goby, yellow watchman goby, orange spotted blenny, royal gramma, and a black oscellaris clown.

I recently added a yellow tang and purple tang, both 2”. I put them in an acclimation box with a divider for a week and released them. Both were individually fine with the hippo, but they both bicker throughout the day but worse, fight all night long with chasing and tail swiping.

After a few days and worried it would lead to injury (aside from the small fin slits thus far) I was able to trap the purple as he was the primary aggressor.

I’ve now had the purple in the acclimation box for 2 weeks. He seems relaxed in there and now the yellow has been coming out and swimming a lot. But now the yellow is being aggressive towards the purple, darting up to the acclimation box and tail swiping. My plan was to rerelease the purple after two weeks but now I am unsure what to do. Thinking of:

1.) release the purple, let them duke it out and hopefully establish a pecking order;

2.) rehome the purple as my wife and I prefer the yellow, but I also love purple tangs; or

3.) adding a third zebrasoma tang to break up the yellow vs purple dynamic and hopefully regulate. Considering a 3.5-4” gem tang at the LFS.

Also considering adding a WTBT to also break up the dynamic but after reading this thread it seems people with more than one zebrasoma have success once they have 3+.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[4FordFamily]

New member here, and have a recently set up Reefer S550 that’s been up for 4 months now (mixed reef). I started with a pair of perculas and a 2” blue hippo that’s now about 3”. I also have a diamond goby, yellow watchman goby, orange spotted blenny, royal gramma, and a black oscellaris clown.

I recently added a yellow tang and purple tang, both 2”. I put them in an acclimation box with a divider for a week and released them. Both were individually fine with the hippo, but they both bicker throughout the day but worse, fight all night long with chasing and tail swiping.

After a few days and worried it would lead to injury (aside from the small fin slits thus far) I was able to trap the purple as he was the primary aggressor.

I’ve now had the purple in the acclimation box for 2 weeks. He seems relaxed in there and now the yellow has been coming out and swimming a lot. But now the yellow is being aggressive towards the purple, darting up to the acclimation box and tail swiping. My plan was to rerelease the purple after two weeks but now I am unsure what to do. Thinking of:

1.) release the purple, let them duke it out and hopefully establish a pecking order;

2.) rehome the purple as my wife and I prefer the yellow, but I also love purple tangs; or

3.) adding a third zebrasoma tang to break up the yellow vs purple dynamic and hopefully regulate. Considering a 3.5-4” gem tang at the LFS.

Also considering adding a WTBT to also break up the dynamic but after reading this thread it seems people with more than one zebrasoma have success once they have 3+.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Hello and welcome to the forum! We are glad to have you.

I typically find that zebrasoma tangs don’t hold long grudges. That said, each is an individual and generalizations don’t always apply. Usually after a few days they get used to each other. I’m discouraged by the aggression toward the acclimation box.

I also wouldn’t add more zebrasoma tangs because of the tank size. You could risk it and let them duke it out or rehome one of them. I lean towards the latter unfortunately based on the fact that all this time later they’re still aggressive through the acclimation box. :(

 

[VoodooReefer350]

Hello and welcome to the forum! We are glad to have you.

I typically find that zebrasoma tangs don’t hold long grudges. That said, each is an individual and generalizations don’t always apply. Usually after a few days they get used to each other. I’m discouraged by the aggression toward the acclimation box.

I also wouldn’t add more zebrasoma tangs because of the tank size. You could risk it and let them duke it out or rehome one of them. I lean towards the latter unfortunately based on the fact that all this time later they’re still aggressive through the acclimation box. :(

Thank you! How many tangs could I get away with in a 120 DT? It seems like I see that number range from 1 to 6 depending on who you ask.

 

[4FordFamily]

Thank you! How many tangs could I get away with in a 120 DT? It seems like I see that number range from 1 to 6 depending on who you ask.

You can probably get away with 3-5 depending on how effective your nutrient export is. I misunderstood which reefer you had, sorry! I’d avoid most acanthurus tangs as they really need 6 foot wide tanks by and large :)

 

[VoodooReefer350]

You can probably get away with 3-5 depending on how effective your nutrient export is. I misunderstood which reefer you had, sorry! I’d avoid most acanthurus tangs as they really need 6 foot wide tanks by and large :)

Yea it’s a pretty big tank for a 4’ its like 48x28x26 or so. 3-5 is kinda what I was hoping. I’m planning on staying away from acanthurus, and know I’m pushing it with the hippo but it was a must have for my wife and daughters, a Dory haha. I’m hoping starting with a 2” one will buy us time.

Ideally I’d like to have the hippo, yellow, purple, gem, and whitetail bristletooth.

I may try the gem and see how it changes the dynamic and if all else fails maybe rehome the purple. The tank is setup for high nutrient export.

 

[4FordFamily]

Yea it’s a pretty big tank for a 4’ its like 48x28x26 or so. 3-5 is kinda what I was hoping. I’m planning on staying away from acanthurus, and know I’m pushing it with the hippo but it was a must have for my wife and daughters, a Dory haha. I’m hoping starting with a 2” one will buy us time.

Ideally I’d like to have the hippo, yellow, purple, gem, and whitetail bristletooth.

I may try the gem and see how it changes the dynamic and if all else fails maybe rehome the purple. The tank is setup for high nutrient export.

That sounds like a plan, let me know how it goes! :)

 

[VoodooReefer350]

That sounds like a plan, let me know how it goes! :)

Well, it’s been a rocky road, and not the ice cream, haha.

I started by going to my LFS and picking up a 4” Gem tang and also a cleaner wrasse because I thought it would be useful in my tank and also another distraction.

All at the same time I released the purple from the acclimation box, added the Gem and wrasse, added two mirrors, added PVC couplings and tees to try to make the scape look different and to add new hiding spots, fed the tank, and had three nori clips full and available. Every trick in the book I could think of.

Within a half second the yellow and purple ignored everything else, zeroed in on each other, and it was Thunderdome 2.0. This went on for days with some fin slits in each that seemed to heal each day for the most part.

The wrasse passed after barely two days, so I think there was an issue with it unrelated to my rank. The Gem refused to eat, I think he was a little intimidated by the yellow and purple, but nobody was aggressive towards him. I offered him everything but he simply wouldn’t eat. Very timid fish.

After 5 days I was thankfully able to catch the Gem without distroying my tank (mixed reef with intricate rock work) and took him back to the LFS. They generously credited me for the wrasse and traded the Gem for another one. This one 4.5” and much less timid and more personable, but with zero aggression.

Took the mirrors down and PVC fittings out and added the Gem. He is a gentle giant in my tank and the boss, disputed by nobody.

It’s been about a week now since adding the second Gem and he’s eating and doing well. He messes with nobody, nobody messes with him, and he swims all over. The yellow and purple are still in there. They’ve gone from nonstop fighting to spending maybe 1/3 of the time chasing each other with some fin slapping. Still some minor fin damage here and there but they heal. The other 2/3 of the time now they swim together, tolerate each other, eat together, and share one nori clip. The purple seems to be growing a tad faster so I’m hoping once the pecking order is established they can coexist. Is that possible or likely?

To add to the chaos, I recently got a WTBT for a great price, about 3.25”. I have him and a new cleaner wrasse currently in QT and will add them in about 1.5 weeks. Possible this may further diffuse the yellow/purple feud or be another distraction. I have promised my wife no more tangs in the tank after this, I think this is the limit.

 

[4FordFamily]

Well, it’s been a rocky road, and not the ice cream, haha.

I started by going to my LFS and picking up a 4” Gem tang and also a cleaner wrasse because I thought it would be useful in my tank and also another distraction.

All at the same time I released the purple from the acclimation box, added the Gem and wrasse, added two mirrors, added PVC couplings and tees to try to make the scape look different and to add new hiding spots, fed the tank, and had three nori clips full and available. Every trick in the book I could think of.

Within a half second the yellow and purple ignored everything else, zeroed in on each other, and it was Thunderdome 2.0. This went on for days with some fin slits in each that seemed to heal each day for the most part.

The wrasse passed after barely two days, so I think there was an issue with it unrelated to my rank. The Gem refused to eat, I think he was a little intimidated by the yellow and purple, but nobody was aggressive towards him. I offered him everything but he simply wouldn’t eat. Very timid fish.

After 5 days I was thankfully able to catch the Gem without distroying my tank (mixed reef with intricate rock work) and took him back to the LFS. They generously credited me for the wrasse and traded the Gem for another one. This one 4.5” and much less timid and more personable, but with zero aggression.

Took the mirrors down and PVC fittings out and added the Gem. He is a gentle giant in my tank and the boss, disputed by nobody.

It’s been about a week now since adding the second Gem and he’s eating and doing well. He messes with nobody, nobody messes with him, and he swims all over. The yellow and purple are still in there. They’ve gone from nonstop fighting to spending maybe 1/3 of the time chasing each other with some fin slapping. Still some minor fin damage here and there but they heal. The other 2/3 of the time now they swim together, tolerate each other, eat together, and share one nori clip. The purple seems to be growing a tad faster so I’m hoping once the pecking order is established they can coexist. Is that possible or likely?

To add to the chaos, I recently got a WTBT for a great price, about 3.25”. I have him and a new cleaner wrasse currently in QT and will add them in about 1.5 weeks. Possible this may further diffuse the yellow/purple feud or be another distraction. I have promised my wife no more tangs in the tank after this, I think this is the limit.

I’m going to guess the zebrasoma tangs work it out - it sounds like they mostly have already.

Cleaner wrasse (unless aquacultured) are very difficult to keep. Glad things are (mostly) working out so far! Keep us apprised :)

Pics??

 

[VoodooReefer350]

I’m going to guess the zebrasoma tangs work it out - it sounds like they mostly have already.

Cleaner wrasse (unless aquacultured) are very difficult to keep. Glad things are (mostly) working out so far! Keep us apprised :)

Pics??

I’ll try to get some good ones tomorrow under white lighting.

Here are the QT guys, the wrasse is tough to get a picture of because he moves so fast. This one is significantly fatter than the last one and is eating, so that’s good. The WTBT is shy and didn’t eat the first two days but now he’s gobbling up NLS pellets.

 

[VoodooReefer350]

I’m going to guess the zebrasoma tangs work it out - it sounds like they mostly have already.

Cleaner wrasse (unless aquacultured) are very difficult to keep. Glad things are (mostly) working out so far! Keep us apprised :)

Pics??

They always get skittish when I put on pure white light haha, so here’s a few.